Euskal Oiloa Chicken Forum

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#1 2014-06-18 21:56:39

Shnookie
Member
From: Regina, Saskatchewan Canada
Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 72

Defects

I have been reading about defects and disqualifications.  The chicks in my last hatch have lots, so it is a learning experience.  I will not be keeping any of them.  I am posting pictures showing some of what I found for comments.  Is there a specific name for some of these conditions, and do you know which are dominant?

The top feathers on this chick's wing curl up.

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t529/chickitos/curledfeather.jpg~original

This chick has white feather stubs at the top of both legs.  There was one like this.

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t529/chickitos/featherstubsbothlegs.jpg~original

This chick's comb leans right.  I expect it will stay this way as it grows.  Am I right?

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t529/chickitos/combleansright.jpg~original

Just for anyone who hasn't seen it, this chick has perosis caused by a manganese deficiency in the breeding birds at the time her egg was made.

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t529/chickitos/Perosis.jpg~original

I'm calling this a twisted comb.  The front of the comb leans a bit left, then 2/3 of the way back, the last couple of points lean right.  A few chicks have one like this.  Is there another name for it?

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t529/chickitos/twistedcomb.jpg~original

This chick and several others have split wings.

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t529/chickitos/splitwing.jpg~original

The comb on this chick has normal points on the front, but small bumps at the back, almost flat.

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t529/chickitos/comb.jpg~original

A few chicks have combs that lean left like this one, some almost flat and some just a bit of a lean.

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t529/chickitos/combleansleft.jpg~original

Some have slipped wings (I think, I have to do more reading), a couple have normal combs.  Some have greenish feet, some have yellowish feet.  One has a few hackle feathers that curl up a bit.

Not a chick, but "thumb marks" on combs or wattles are listed as a defect.  Are the indented spots on this comb thumb marks?

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t529/chickitos/IMG_3450.jpg~original

Last edited by Shnookie (2014-06-18 22:03:50)


Starting with Red Cuckoo (Marraduna) Basque, Speckled Basque, and Blue, Black and Splash Ameraucanas.

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2014-06-18 21:56:39

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#2 2014-06-18 23:43:39

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: Defects

Eo breeders still have lots of work ahead of us, you wont find too many that are perfect yet. 

The first chick could it be that it is just hot?  Some of my chickens hold their wings like that when they are hot.  I would give the combs a bit more time to see if they will stand up straight.  I have noticed some combs like the one with the small bumps on the back on my chicks before but not by the time they were adults. 

Here is a previous discussion we had on leg color http://forums.euskaloiloas.com/viewtopic.php?id=110

I'm sure PG will give you better answers


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#3 2014-06-19 01:23:46

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Defects

Love that you posted all these pictures and questions/comments about defects and DQs Snookie!

First question for you, do you own an American Poultry Association Standard of Perfection (APA SOP)? If you want to understand poultry defects it's a reference you should have.

Second I will quote a few sayings i have had poultry breeders say to me that I keep in the back of my mind:

"build the barn before you paint it" To me this means worry about type (the body shape and size) ahead of worring about things like combs, feather color, shank color.

"you can't eat combs" This was a comment made in regards to my EOs as they had slightly floppy combs. The judge said that the base of their combs was not wide enough to support their comb and this causes the floppiness...but again way less important than type.

I will weigh in on some of your specific questions/comments shortly :)


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#4 2014-06-19 02:55:27

Shnookie
Member
From: Regina, Saskatchewan Canada
Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 72

Re: Defects

I did not buy an SOP yet.  I have a couple of documents from the internet - one from the University of Florida called Selecting Chickens for Show, and one from New York State College called General Disqualifications and Defects in Poultry.  They are both fairly general and both recommend the SOP and the individual breed standards for more information. I have read posts on some forums about defects also.  I like to know what I'm aiming for and I'm always looking to learn.


Starting with Red Cuckoo (Marraduna) Basque, Speckled Basque, and Blue, Black and Splash Ameraucanas.

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#5 2014-06-19 13:31:41

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Defects

Curled wing feathers - not sure on this one, have never noted it myself or read or heard of it as a defect. My first thought would be it might be caused by thin poor quality feathers. As their adult feathers come in the problem may go away or become less pronounced but feather thickness and width is still something to watch for.

Feathers on the shank - feather stubs on the shank or between the toes are a DQ. I have found for the most part this trait is recessive and does pop up in the EOs.

Comb defects
- on an adult a comb that is "lopped below the horizontal plane of the point where the bend occures" is a DQ. I have had EOs with a weak comb base and a slightly floppy comb but none so bad that they would be disqualified, I suspect you will find the same as your chicks grow into their combs.
- side sprigs are any point that come off the comb, they will usually be near the back, from the side. The Mille fleur pullet in your picture has side sprigs.. The one you are saying has a "twisted comb" more likely has a side sprig as well. The belief is there are two difference recessive alleles that cause side sprigs.
- split comb is where the back of the blade has a horizontal split in it (parallel to the head), never seen it in an EO.
- thumb prints - I am going to say that your rooster does not have them. I think, in fact he has a very nice comb.
-twisted comb - you would only be able to see this in an adult, it refers the the front of the comb where it attaches to the beak being folded.

Wings
- split wing, where if you unfold the wing between the two halves there is a distinct gap where it looks like a feather is missing, is a DQ. Some young birds can look like they have split wing when they dont at some points as they molt and grow their feathers. That said, I have Had EOs with split wing. I believe it is a recessive trait.
- slipped wing, problems with the order or carrage of the feathers on the primary section of the wing, a DQ. I would wait to decide on this one as well but I have had EOs with slipped wing. Unsure on the genetics.
- a defect of the wings where the bird holds his/her feathers drooped and not up tucked up to the body is another one to watch for but they also hold their wings like that when they are hot.

Shank color
- if you reference the Draft Basque SOP (there is a copy on the forum) you will see that white shanks are a DQ. That said, white vs yellow is a simple genetic trait with yellow recessive to white so easy to fix.
- the greenish shank color is an ongoing problem in EOs. I am finding that my gorria EOs the shanks are easy to get nice dark yellow but on the marraduna I often have birds with pale yellow or even greenish yellow shanks. The greenish color is recessive and is also masked by the barring gene in the marraduna roosters.

Other defect I see in your birds:
- black on the beak, EOs should have a yellow beak, watch for birds with lots of black pigment.
- white on the earlobe, I see a bit (not bad) in your adult rooster's earlob. eOs should have solid red earlobes.

And after all of that I am going to repeat what gubi did. EOs are a work in progress and it's going to take years for breeders to get all the right traits and none of the wrong traits into their breeding birds. I hatched close to 125 EO chicks this year and not a single one is without a couple of defects. I will still be using them for breeding, carefully considering which 10-20% to keep and then who to pair up for breeding. I try to match up birds with different strengths and weaknesses with the hopes that the some offspring with have more of the good traits and less of the bad. I also keep genetic diversity in mind when selecting.

And also keep in mind all of the traits we just discussed are pretty superficial, other traits related to production (size, shape), healthy and personality are equally important.

Again, thank you for posting! It's great that you are paying so much attention to your EOs and learning. Hopefully you are willing to accept them despite all their flaws for now and work with the breed to get them where you (and all of us) would like to see them, defect and DQ free!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#6 2014-06-21 03:23:06

Shnookie
Member
From: Regina, Saskatchewan Canada
Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 72

Re: Defects

Thank-you poplar girl and others for all the information.  The leg post was interesting too.  Are definitions of defects in the SOP, or are you using a book on genetics?  I also have information from the ALBC website about breeding chickens.  The curled wing was not a permanent thing on that bird, and after watching closely, I saw others do that when they laid down.  I have read and saved a copy of the EO SOP from this forum.


Starting with Red Cuckoo (Marraduna) Basque, Speckled Basque, and Blue, Black and Splash Ameraucanas.

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#7 2014-06-21 04:23:18

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Defects

Most of the descriptions of defects and DQs are from the APA SOP. There are black and white drawings of most in there as well. The genetics info is from my reading of various sources over the past few years, my observations, and we were lucky enough to have a mentor for a genetics study group on EOs a few winters ago as well.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#8 2014-06-28 16:10:48

Shnookie
Member
From: Regina, Saskatchewan Canada
Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 72

Re: Defects

I did get 4 girls and 8 boys in this hatch.  2 girls had greenish legs and 2 girls had yellow legs.  I sold the two with greenish legs, so don't know if they are still.  2 boys had greenish legs, but all boy legs are now yellow.  They are 7 weeks old.


Starting with Red Cuckoo (Marraduna) Basque, Speckled Basque, and Blue, Black and Splash Ameraucanas.

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#9 2014-06-28 20:14:46

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Defects

On the boys the barring gene masks the green legs so you will see it while they are young and then it disappears but they will still pass it onto their offspring.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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