Euskal Oiloa Chicken Forum

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#26 2012-03-10 18:31:35

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

One last day to try the quiz. I will post answers tonight or tomorrow!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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2012-03-10 18:31:35

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#27 2012-03-11 17:18:18

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

1. One of the EO pullets you hatched is a bit small for her age of 8 weeks, has a slightly crooked toe and her legs look to be green. Too bad because other than those few faults she is turning out to be a very nice pullet. Out of 12 eggs you only hatched her and one rooster as the incubation temperature was a bit off. Thank goodness all your other hatches of eggs from the same source before and after went better!  You are trying to make initial selections of who to keep. For this little pullet you think:

A. Her smaller size, crooked toe and green legs must all be genetic as all traits we see are the result of gene expression. 0            
B. It is possible her crooked toe was caused by the bad incubation but her smaller size and green legs must be entirely genetic.    1
C. Both her smaller size and crooked toe could have been caused by the bad incubation but her green legs are genetic. 5
D. Her green legs are just the result of too much grass but her crooked toe and small size must be genetic. 0

And MD already got the discussion started for us with these comments:
I choose the third answer, but the survey won't let me add notes in this box without un-marking it. The way the question is posed, there is no reason given for what purpose the pullet will be kept. Since there is reference to ealier and later hatches that went well, I would hope there would be much better choices of pullets to retain for breeding stock of the rare and endangered EO strain... Don't breed this pullet unless necessity demands it. (see also epigenetics) Maggiesdad


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#28 2012-03-11 17:31:47

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

First what is epigenetics?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
ipf I'm sure can clean up my definition but epigenetics is a heritable change to the phenotype of an individual without any chances to the underlying DNA. Genes expression is turned on or off as a response to triggers in the environment. The changes can last through severeral cycles of cell division and even be passed to the next generation.

So MD where do you feel epigenetics might come into play?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#29 2012-03-11 20:46:03

Maggiesdad
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From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

I don't know whether on not it would come into play. I threw that in there to how you would respond.

I've read that incorrect incubator temperature (a duration of too high or low) can have the effect of killing the males in the shell, or the females, giving the appearance of hatching all off one sex or the other...  If bad temps can cause death to one sex and not the other, or smaller size chicks, or crooked toes, how do we know we haven't affected the chicks in other deleterious ways that might not be expressed for several generations? Is hatching in a styrofoam incubator (or any incubator other than a broody hen)  something to be avoided?

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#30 2012-03-12 04:18:39

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

No doubt poor incubation can cause problems from mortality to crooked toes to smaller chicks. I don't know though that I would expect the effect to be delayed? I think you would see it right away, not in the resulting chicks down the road a generation or two. I think the opposite would be true where if something is epigenetic the effect would go away with time, either within the individual's life or perhaps with the next generation. I would consider keeping a smaller pullet or one with a crooked toe if I thought environment caused these traits. Given time the pullet might turn out to be nice and big.

Incubating eggs definately has its issues. Both temperature and humidity can be way off. I have read (I think in Hutt but I don't have it with me) that low humidity can cause chicks to be smaller. To me there is a happy medium for sure, maybe a smaller chick can get out of the shell easier and sooner but it will have less energy to start from. Too much humidity chicks might be too big and not make it out of the shell. One of the traits I will be monitoring my EOs for is broodiness. I want to retain that trait. Another will be percent hatch of the eggs whether in the incubator or under a hen. So much to pay attention to isn't there?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#31 2012-03-12 18:00:56

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

2. In a few years time, as breeding efforts pay off, within a flock of marraduna variety Euskal oiloak individuals should be:

A. Homozygous for all genes. 0
B. Heterozygous for some of the genes that define the breed and variety otherwise the flock will be too inbred. 0
C. Homozygous for all genes that define the breed and variety but heterozygous for other genes otherwise the flock will be too inbred. 6
D. Heterozygous for all genes.    0

Everyone got this one correct :thumbs:


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#32 2012-03-12 18:06:15

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

3. You have a rooster with white legs and a hen with yellow legs. What do you know about the leg color of the chicks?

A. The chicks will all have white legs as white skin color (W) is dominant to yellow (w). 1
B. 50% of the chicks will have yellow legs, 50% will have white legs. 0
C. Since the trait for yellow skin color is linked to brown egg production and these traits are 10.1 map units apart 89.9% of the chicks should have yellow legs if you hatch a large enough sample size. 0
D. The chicks will either have all white legs or about 50% of the chicks will have yellow legs. 5

I enjoyed MD's comments immensely on this one:

OK I have read the whole thread and I still don't understand this topic. Were the rooster and the hen in question bred together? Or did the chicks come in the mail from Murray McMurray Hatchery? LOL d:^)) The chicks will have one yellow leg and one white leg... ROTFLMAO!! Okay okay - I'm guessing the first answer, but I can not explain why I think it's correct. #4 is worded funky and #3 is too much mumbo jumbo so I have a 50% chance of getting this one right...


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#33 2012-03-12 18:14:01

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

To answer this question it might help to write out what is known about the parents:

The hen has yellow legs. Since this is a recessive trait we know she must be w/w.
The rooster has white legs. That means he is either W/w or W/W. By phenotype there is no way to tell which he is.

A punnett square could be used to to determine what collored legs the chicks will have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square But I can't draw one using my iPad.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#34 2012-03-12 18:26:18

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

I have a comment on question #1  I think I was the one who answered B.  I think final adult size has very little to do with incubation or the size of a chick at the start.  Yes if they have a rough start it can slow them down a little but they should be able to catch up.  If not they shouldn't go into the breeding pen because we don't want any weak EO's.  My way of thinking here is if they aren't tough enough to do well in my system their offspring most likely will not either.  Even the crooked toes why are the EO's more susceptible to it?  Must be some genetic influence. 
I do realize we can't weed out everything the first few years and will have to make some compromises.


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#35 2012-03-12 18:37:54

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

gubi wrote:

I have a comment on question #1  I think I was the one who answered B.  I think final adult size has very little to do with incubation or the size of a chick at the start.  Yes if they have a rough start it can slow them down a little but they should be able to catch up.  If not they shouldn't go into the breeding pen because we don't want any weak EO's.  My way of thinking here is if they aren't tough enough to do well in my system their offspring most likely will not either.  Even the crooked toes why are the EO's more susceptible to it?  Must be some genetic influence. 
I do realize we can't weed out everything the first few years and will have to make some compromises.

I think with the crooked toes some of what we are seeing in the EOs is genetic. And some is environmental. In this example it is likely the crooked toes were caused by environment. But it is unlikely at all of the crooked toes we are seeing in the EOs are caused by environment.

With regards to size, the same could be true. But I would agree with you gubi that as the birds get older i would cull a small EO even if he/she was nice otherwise. In this question the pullet was only 8 weeks old, probably borderline for whether the incubation is still the reason why she is small.

My reason for including this question was to cause people think about how significant the impacts of environment can be.  You will notice that in the correct answer I used words like "could have", I did not want to imply that the crooked toe and small size were environmental with 100% certainty. In reality not everything is genetic OR environmental, some traits are the combination of both.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#36 2012-03-13 16:36:02

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

4. A locus is:

A. A large grasshopper. The plural of this term is loci. 0
B. The specific physical location of a gene. For an individual the two alleles of a gene have the same locus with one allele on each of the chromosomes. 3
C. The specific physical location of a gene. For an individual the two alleles of a gene share the same locus on a chromosome. 2
D. The specific physical location of a gene. Map units indicate how far apart the two alleles of an individual are for a specific gene locus. 0

Other (please specify)
Answer #1 is wrong - lol hahaha lol Answers #2, #3,and #4 all three have extra information that I can neither confirm or deny with the info from our topic 2 thread. This much is true - A locus is the specific pysical location of a gene on a chromosome.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#37 2012-03-13 16:52:57

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

You did have to start to put together concepts talked about in a couple places for this one as the definition of a locus did not specify the correct second part of the definition as MD pointed out. The key concept here was to know that and individual has two (homologous) chromosomes. The alleles for a trait can be the same (homozygoous) or different (heterzygous) and are located on those chromosomes, one on each.

Does that make sense?

The only sort of exception is the sex chromosomes where the rooster is ZZ but the female is ZW with the W chromosome being very tiny and not containing much....this leads to the next question...


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#38 2012-03-13 17:12:14

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

5. You hatch 20 chicks from a pair marraduna EOs. You end up with 10 girl chicks and 10 boy chicks. All of the male chicks are barred. Only 4 out of 6 of the female chicks are barred. You know the allele for sex linked barring is dominant and located on the Z chromosome.You conclude:

A. Your rooster must be heterozygous for the allele for barring. 5
B. You probably just got lucky with the roosters all being barred. If you hatched more chicks the results would be the same for males and females.     0
C. Your hen must be homozygous for the allele for barring and carry two copies. 1
D. Your rooster is homozygous for the allele for barring. 0

Not 100% sure of this either, but here's my answer. I pick #1. Here goes nothing, since it's dominant and on the Z and some of her pullet chicks dont have it, then the two unbarred pullet chicks' one Z doesn't have it, and of course the W doesn't have it, so since the mama hen gave the W and the Roo gave the Z, Roo must be NOT HOMO, that's my reasoning, not sure if it's right or not.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#39 2012-03-13 17:20:22

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

Since the hen is barred she must be B/-. As a female she only has one Z chromosome (and one tiny W)
Since the rooster is barred he could be B/b or B/b as males are ZZ.

The chromosome from the hen decides the gender of the chicks. All male chicks get their Z chromosome from the hen which we know carries the allele for barring. The female chicks get a W from the hen and a Z from the rooster.

Since some of the female chicks are not barred one of the Z chromosomes that the rooster carries must not have the allele for barring. Thus the rooster is heterozygous or B/b for barring.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#40 2012-03-13 17:22:18

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

Okay time for feedback and discussion :please:

Anyone confused or disagree with any of the answers?
Where the questions too hard?
Did you learn anything answering them?

Was this an exercise in frustration or fun??

Just let me and ipf know what is working for you and what isn't! The study group is meant to be educational, useful and fun!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#41 2012-03-13 20:19:12

Maggiesdad
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From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

No frustration - much fun!  :thanks:   more!  :applause: Bravo PG! :jumping:    :love:

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#42 2012-03-14 04:25:17

Island Girl
Member
From: Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Isla
Registered: 2011-07-06
Posts: 1403

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

I have to admit I am feeling a little left behind but only because I haven't been able to apply myself. I was so looking forward to this study group but I have too much other stuff going on to be able to concentrate on it. I will tag along and maybe I will get some of it by osmosis!! I can always go over it (and over it again) til it makes sense to me, I am so glad that you guys are able to do this and don't mind me as a 'cling-on'!! :surfing:

XOX Monika

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#43 2012-03-14 12:27:40

Lindy Lou
Member
From: Priceville, Ontario
Registered: 2011-07-03
Posts: 999

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

Don't feel too bad IG as most of this stuff has sailed right over my head. I knew I was in trouble when I opened Hutt's book and I had to get out a Dictionary to understand the first few pages.
And who said "You CAN teach an old dog new tricks"?


Some of us are driven by the need to make animals a part of our lives. We are soothed by their presence, fascinated by their behavior, and amused by their antics.

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#44 2012-03-14 15:41:56

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

poplar girl wrote:

In reality not everything is genetic OR environmental, some traits are the combination of both.

I'd go one stronger, and say that most traits are a combination of both - there are very few traits that have absolutely no environmental component (even leg colour!), and fewer yet (none?) that are not influenced by genes in some way.

Please don't lose heart, folks! This stuff isn't simple, but it's not impossible either. Learning the terms is perhaps the biggest obstacle, but once you've got that, it's a lot easier. I recommend sketching the  chromosome pairs, with alleles on them - that last one on barring is a good place to start.

And, ASK QUESTIONS! ARGUE! please.

(Sorry, I've been out of the loop for a couple of days as we had a huge windstorm on Sunday night that took out our power - it came back late last night).

Last edited by ipf (2012-03-14 15:43:29)

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#45 2013-01-13 04:30:05

onymous
New member
Registered: 2013-01-10
Posts: 2

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

I've just joined the forum and I'm working my way through the wealth of information available here.  By sheer chance, the mention of epigenetics above coincides with a special insert on the subject in the latest issue of one of my favorite magazines, the NewScientist, January 5-11, 2013. It is part of their ongoing 'instant expert' inserts. It is a very basic, painless introduction to the subject by Adrian Bird of the University of Edinburgh. The issue should still be at the newsstands.

Edited to add: for non-subscribers, limited access can be had here: http://www.newscientist.com/special/ins … pigenetics

Last edited by onymous (2013-01-13 04:38:33)

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#46 2013-01-13 04:53:34

Lindy Lou
Member
From: Priceville, Ontario
Registered: 2011-07-03
Posts: 999

Re: Topic 2: Test Your Knowlege (quiz 2) RESULTS

Welcome to our Forum Onymous. Perhaps you could introduce yourself and let us know here you're from and a little about yourself. You will find this a very friendly group of people :happycrowd", with a wide knowledge base, from all walks of life and all age groups. The one thing that binds us all together is our love of birds particularly EO's and Tiny Purple Chickens. So hopefully you will stay a while and get to know the rest of us.
For me Glad you are here and :welcome:


Some of us are driven by the need to make animals a part of our lives. We are soothed by their presence, fascinated by their behavior, and amused by their antics.

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