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#1 2011-09-04 08:56:39

3riverschick
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From: Ligonier, in Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: 2011-08-11
Posts: 64
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All The Pretty Little Colors

Ok, I think I have finally figured out these colors. idf, please correct me if I am wrong!

1. Gorria is the base color for the breed. It is Black-Tailed Red like the New Hampshire.  Then the plumage is tweaked to get the other 4 varieties in the breed.

2. Beltza is Gorria taken to the extreme. If one keeps adding Ml and rb to Black-Tailed Red, one gets the deep Rhode Island Red color. Keep adding ML and rb and eventually the whole bird is black(Beltza).  ( Ml is Melonic; rb is recessive black)

3. Marraduna, is Gorria with barring (from the barring gene, not autosomal barring).  Eoalak says a side effect is the chestnut hues are brightened. I think that's why I thought I was looking at a barred Black-Tailed Buff.... and not a barred Black-Tailed Red.  That also explains the Mh in the Marraduna when I was expecting just Co/Co( to lighten and even out the buff hues).

4. Lepasoila : A Naked-Neck Gorria.

5. Zilarra : Take Gorria...change the red and brown areas to white and leave the black areas the same, viola!, Zilarra.
( same visual effect as Light Sussex)

6. Llodiana , at present, is not of the breed Esukal Oiloa.( sebastapol says Llodiana is a part of Euskal Oiloa, so maybe I am wrong?)  It is a separate breed of Basque chicken. It is a barred eWh bird based on Gorria. The hen exists at the extreme lght end of the buff spectrum..very light buff with little, if any, black on the hen. ( a buff hen exhibiting the Co gene to the extent that black is almost or completely removed from the hen)
  The cock looks like a Black-Tailed Red, except his stomach feathering is much lighter buff color. ( I was real disappointed to learn Llodian was not EO because I wanted to breed this color in EO's. But I will also have  lot of fun breeding the other EO colors instead. The road goes ever, ever on....

  So life is always creating new possibilities. I had wanted to breed BTB in Marans ( that didn't happen) which happens to be the same color as Gorria in EO's. So Now I can breed Gorria in all its varieties in EO's! Cool, huh!
Best Regards,

Last edited by 3riverschick (2011-09-26 21:18:10)


Karen Tewart
"The present is best served when we remember the past."

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2011-09-04 08:56:39

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#2 2011-09-04 13:14:08

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

Thanks 3riverchick for posting this! I have to admit though, my knowledge of poultry color genetics is not what yours is so it only sort of makes sense to me right now.

I think the Black Horse Ranch EO flock must have some gorria birds in it. I had 5 females that looked gorria this year, still have two of them. I don't plan to breed that color (just marraduna) so I wasn't planning to keep them. Too bad you live so far away and across a international boarder as I would love to be able to get them to you.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#3 2011-09-04 17:32:57

3riverschick
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From: Ligonier, in Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: 2011-08-11
Posts: 64
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Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

poplar girl wrote:

Thanks 3riverchick for posting this! I have to admit though, my knowledge of poultry color genetics is not what yours is so it only sort of makes sense to me right now.

I think the Black Horse Ranch EO flock must have some gorria birds in it. I had 5 females that looked gorria this year, still have two of them. I don't plan to breed that color (just marraduna) so I wasn't planning to keep them. Too bad you live so far away and across a international boarder as I would love to be able to get them to you.

===============
  Yeah, that would be great. Too bad there's a border between us, sigh. If I haven't made a mistake, there's Gorria in everything. So hopefully, it will keep keep popping up on a consistant basis.
Best,


Karen Tewart
"The present is best served when we remember the past."

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#4 2011-09-04 19:39:10

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
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Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

I believe Llodiana's is an Euskal Oiloa but they are considered extinct!  Claire's Blondie and some of her daughters have a close resemblance to the Llodiana color.
http://forums.euskaloiloas.com/viewtopic.php?id=68


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#5 2011-09-06 18:54:16

3riverschick
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From: Ligonier, in Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: 2011-08-11
Posts: 64
Website

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

poplar girl wrote:

Thanks 3riverchick for posting this! I have to admit though, my knowledge of poultry color genetics is not what yours is so it only sort of makes sense to me right now.

I think the Black Horse Ranch EO flock must have some gorria birds in it. I had 5 females that looked gorria this year, still have two of them. I don't plan to breed that color (just marraduna) so I wasn't planning to keep them. Too bad you live so far away and across a international boarder as I would love to be able to get them to you.

--------------------
You might want to reoconsider keeping a couple of Gorria. They are the color from which all other color varieties spring in EO's. If you need to "fix" one of your other colors, using Gorria would be a wise choice.  Marraduna is  Gorria with the barring gene.
Best,


Karen Tewart
"The present is best served when we remember the past."

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#6 2011-09-06 23:11:24

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

3riverschick wrote:

poplar girl wrote:

Thanks 3riverchick for posting this! I have to admit though, my knowledge of poultry color genetics is not what yours is so it only sort of makes sense to me right now.

I think the Black Horse Ranch EO flock must have some gorria birds in it. I had 5 females that looked gorria this year, still have two of them. I don't plan to breed that color (just marraduna) so I wasn't planning to keep them. Too bad you live so far away and across a international boarder as I would love to be able to get them to you.

--------------------
You might want to reoconsider keeping a couple of Gorria. They are the color from which all other color varieties spring in EO's. If you need to "fix" one of your other colors, using Gorria would be a wise choice.  Marraduna is  Gorria with the barring gene.
Best,

Hum...something to consider. I believe I have room to keep these two over the winter and thus into next breeding season. Both have some good traits. Thanks.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#7 2011-09-07 03:43:53

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
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Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

The Gorrias we had were just as friendly as the Marradunas :doI?:

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#8 2011-09-07 03:59:37

3riverschick
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From: Ligonier, in Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: 2011-08-11
Posts: 64
Website

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

skeffling lavender farm wrote:

The Gorrias we had were just as friendly as the Marradunas :doI?:

=======================
According to that 1999 history of EO's on the basque webite (quoting), '
"Specific production as a result of the data products
generated two varieties:"
Color variety -- Principal function
Gorria .. .........mixed (eggs and meat)
Lepasoila... .....meat
Marraduna ..... eggs



Best,

Last edited by 3riverschick (2011-09-07 04:39:43)


Karen Tewart
"The present is best served when we remember the past."

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#9 2011-09-07 11:22:59

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

I wonder why the difference since all are one breed and the critera other than color are the same for all?

Oh, and yes, SLF the gorria looking girls have been just as friendly. My youngest loves to sit on my shoulder.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#10 2011-09-07 15:43:27

Young Heritage
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From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

Just thinking out loud as a newbie to genetics but maybe someone can correct me, Are the coloring genes tied/related to other genes or control more than just color? If they all started as Gorria and then were bread to get the others as sated in the first post i could not see the color as the only thing that changes. Example would be the Beltza.

2. Beltza is Gorria taken to the extreme. If one keeps adding Ml and rb to Black-Tailed Red, one gets the deep Rhode Island Red color. Keep adding ML and rb and eventually the whole bird is black(Beltza).  ( Ml is Melonic; rb is recessive black)

How can you add just one gene or even 2 genes to get the Beltza, you might be focusing on those 2 genes but you are going to get others as well correct?

Maybe I am just confused =D Actually I am sure I am confused ;)


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#11 2011-09-07 15:49:10

Young Heritage
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From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

Another newbie question, lol. If they are 1 breed then how do the Lepasoila fit in. Were they crosses with something to get the naked neck or was it a true "sport"? If it was crossed with something then maybe some of the meat characteristics came into play during the crossing. If it was a sport, then maybe something else mutated to make a better meat bird.


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#12 2011-09-07 16:00:39

3riverschick
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From: Ligonier, in Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: 2011-08-11
Posts: 64
Website

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

poplar girl wrote:

I wonder why the difference since all are one breed and the critera other than color are the same for all?

Oh, and yes, SLF the gorria looking girls have been just as friendly. My youngest loves to sit on my shoulder.

====================
Don't know. But Sussex are the same way. Each of the Sussex colors was bred for a different principal functon. Author Sharpe's    "Sussex Fowl" Book is online at http://www.archive.org and he talks about that. I know the Sussex breed see-sawed  back and forth between more eggs and more meat from their breed.  The elders kept having to warn the breeders that it was a dual-purpose breed. Not just meat or eggs. Because breeding either end of the spectrum changed the physical appearance of the breed and, in Sussex, visual type is everything. If it doesn't look phenotyically like the Standard, it's not a Sussex, regardless of how many eggs it lays or meat it carries on the carcass. The Sussex folk are as strict about that as the Marans folk are that the hen must -lay a number 4 hue egg and have feathered shanks- to be considered a Marans.
But EO's were a Government recreated breed. So maybe the Government thought it would be an efficent idea to make a color for farmers who wanted either eggs or meat or both in their production programs? and a color for farmers who wanted both.  I think I read that translation correct that they created the specialized purposes   for each color based on the data they collected.  They don't say whether that data which originated from within their program or from  info they collected on the heritage of the breed.
I think its cool we have the option, tho.  Dual-purpose means the homestead doesn't have to have 2 breeds for both purposes. But if one is specializing in either eggs or meat, theres a variety for that too, smile. I like that. Honestly, I am much more familair with dual-purpose fow that just egg or meat birds.
Theres just so much variety with these poultry! I love it!                   
Best,                                                                                                            :EO:

Last edited by 3riverschick (2011-09-07 18:16:28)


Karen Tewart
"The present is best served when we remember the past."

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#13 2011-09-07 18:10:21

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
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Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

The way I understand is that the basque government realised their native breeds are in trouble and went out and collected similar looking fowl on Basque farms.  In one area they were looking Marraduna in an other Gorria etc.  It is possible that the marraduna they happened to pick where better layers?  I do know with my marraduna they grew faster then the other breeds I have and the excess cockerels had good size to them by the time they were starting to bother the pullets. On one of the links on here they say that the cockerels are supposed to be 2kg by 13 weeks old and the pullets are measured by how many eggs they lay in week 37 I think.


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#14 2011-09-07 18:14:06

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
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Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

The following is from this site
http://euskaloiloa.blogspot.com/search/ … lina-vasca

Back in 1975 the Department of Animal Genetics, National Institute of Agricultural Research (INIA) began a program location, conservation and genetic study of Spanish breeds of hens, which was undertaken in the selection and investigation of a number of chickens from the Basque Country which eventually form the breed known today as "Euskal Oiloa" (Basque chicken).


Understand then, that the race "Euskal Oiloa" is a new creation, as that was not previously set or defined, although it is clearly representative of a number of chickens that have traditionally existed throughout the Cantabrian coast, in general, and in the Basque Country in particular.


Given the situation of this population of chickens, most likely, had not intervened at that time would not exist today, having gone unnoticed for us an important part of the heritage unrecoverable domestic breeds represent precisely at a time in which major international institutions like the United Nations (FAO) and the European Union, have turned their eyes to animal genetic resources, considering them a cultural, natural and economic lines and enabling the first order for information, evaluation and conservation.


Thus, the first collection of eggs was carried out in different villages in Gipuzkoa between 1975 and 1976. During the following years he tried to standardize the colors and seeing that the most abundant feathers were red (lepogorria) and the barred red (marraduna) began the selection of these two varieties to its full resolution. Meanwhile uniformity in color of two varieties: one black (beltza) and a silver or Armin type Columbian (zilarra).


In 1983, noting some weakness, especially in the variety "marraduna" proceeded to a second collection of eggs from hens lepogorri native varieties, eta marraduna zilarra, this time in Alava and Bizkaia.


In June 1985 the Agricultural Research Unit Fraisoro (Gipuzkoa) under the Agricultural Research Service of the Department of Agriculture of the Basque Government will take over the INIA and launches the "Program Selection and Improvement of the race Euskal Oiloa" under the direction of agricultural ingenerable Alberto Garcia Sanz.


During the first three years of that program proceeded, in addition to the genesis of a database exist concerning productive and reproductive characters, the morphological uniformity of the animals, also incorporating beltza varieties and the variety and defining zilarra lepasoila. Also within the annual renewal process were applied very simple selection indices based on quantitative characters.


From the fourth year there was differentiation of lines: male and female aspects as indicative of production of each variety and the application of more accurate selection index, including within the meaning of these variables with quality, both in the flesh as in eggs.


So were fully defined morphological genes: PR (single peak), ww (yellow skin), Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in the leg) popo (four fingers on leg), Na / na (neck covered and bare) , along with the E / e (Black / dark brown), Co / co (Columbian (restriction of black) /), S / s (silver / gold), Bl / bl, C / c and B / b (bar), responsible color and plumage patterns.

The selection criteria applied to male lines were live weight and breast angle at 90 days old, and the number and average weight of eggs laid in weeks 32 and 33 of life, in the case of females , while males were selected by the weights at 37, 50 and 90 days, the ascending and minimum levels of inbreeding in the crosses. The selection coefficients are 2, 1% for the roosters and 10.5% in chickens.

Regarding female feminine lines, the rate of selection was applied on the number, average weight, color of skin and Haugh units of eggs laid during weeks 33 and 33, besides having a live weight at different ages, minimum . Their males were selected for information of ancestors, low levels of inbreeding and live weights at different ages.
The selection coefficients applied are 2.0% and 2.51% cocks in chickens. As for reproductive traits and production reached a perfect differentiation between male and female lines, and the most remarkable increase since the founding generations taking into account the broad genetic base that was established starting to not be limited by excessive inbreeding.


In the early nineties, the Basque Government terminating the breeding program, although some varieties, especially beltza, far from what we understand posting. Everything indicates that the abandonment of the program was premature and caused by extrinsic causes.

However, the March 15, 2001, recognizing the importance of conserving the genetic heritage and animal biodiversity posed by different indigenous animal breeds threatened with extinction, the Basque Government, by order of the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, approved the specific regulation of avian race "Euskal Oiloa" in order to coordinate the conservation, restoration and improvement of the breed.

Last edited by gubi (2011-09-07 18:15:31)


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#15 2011-09-07 18:37:11

3riverschick
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From: Ligonier, in Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: 2011-08-11
Posts: 64
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Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

Gubi,
Your translation program is better than mine.Thanks very much for this. Answers some questions I had. Have you read anywhere whether the Beltza was created by ever-darkening the Gorria until it was black? Or did they just use a black chicken they found out on the farms?
Best,


Karen Tewart
"The present is best served when we remember the past."

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#16 2011-09-08 00:20:25

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

I use google translate, it's part of the google tool bar,  It works very well and the few chicken related words it doesn't know we have figured out by now.  I only ever heard of them picking flocks that looked alike and never of them breeding for a certain colour.  All my information comes from google, so I don't know what is the truth for sure.
That article explains things very well for me about the origins and development of the breed,  I have no Idea who the author is but I like to believe it and use it to better the Eo's in Cananda.


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#17 2012-09-30 02:56:34

Laingcroft
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Registered: 2012-09-03
Posts: 12

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

3riverschick wrote:

Ok, I think I have finally figured out these colors. idf, please correct me if I am wrong!

1. Gorria is the base color for the breed. It is Black-Tailed Red like the New Hampshire.  Then the plumage is tweaked to get the other 4 varieties in the breed.

2. Beltza is Gorria taken to the extreme. If one keeps adding Ml and rb to Black-Tailed Red, one gets the deep Rhode Island Red color. Keep adding ML and rb and eventually the whole bird is black(Beltza).  ( Ml is Melonic; rb is recessive black)

3. Marraduna, is Gorria with barring (from the barring gene, not autosomal barring).  Eoalak says a side effect is the chestnut hues are brightened. I think that's why I thought I was looking at a barred Black-Tailed Buff.... and not a barred Black-Tailed Red.  That also explains the Mh in the Marraduna when I was expecting just Co/Co( to lighten and even out the buff hues).

4. Lepasoila : A Naked-Neck Gorria.

5. Zilarra : Take Gorria...change the red and brown areas to white and leave the black areas the same, viola!, Zilarra.
( same visual effect as Light Sussex)

6. Llodiana , at present, is not of the breed Esukal Oiloa.( sebastapol says Llodiana is a part of Euskal Oiloa, so maybe I am wrong?)  It is a separate breed of Basque chicken. It is a barred eWh bird based on Gorria. The hen exists at the extreme lght end of the buff spectrum..very light buff with little, if any, black on the hen. ( a buff hen exhibiting the Co gene to the extent that black is almost or completely removed from the hen)
  The cock looks like a Black-Tailed Red, except his stomach feathering is much lighter buff color. ( I was real disappointed to learn Llodian was not EO because I wanted to breed this color in EO's. But I will also have  lot of fun breeding the other EO colors instead. The road goes ever, ever on....

  So life is always creating new possibilities. I had wanted to breed BTB in Marans ( that didn't happen) which happens to be the same color as Gorria in EO's. So Now I can breed Gorria in all its varieties in EO's! Cool, huh!
Best Regards,

gubi wrote:

So were fully defined morphological genes: PR (single peak), ww (yellow skin), Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in the leg) popo (four fingers on leg), Na / na (neck covered and bare) , along with the E / e (Black / dark brown), Co / co (Columbian (restriction of black) /), S / s (silver / gold), Bl / bl, C / c and B / b (bar), responsible color and plumage patterns.

I have a pretty good handle on genetics in mammals (dogs & rabbits) and have been spending the past year trying to wrap my brain around the avian genetics which are more complicated and reversed (male = ZZ, female = ZW instead of male = XY, female = XX) but I think I'm slowly getting there.

One problem I have with the source gubi quoted is the base color being E = black or e = brown (which should actually be, in genotype shorthand, eb = brown; e+ is a totally different type, i.e. wild type.)  I believe the Basque are based on eWh = Wheaten, specifically black tailed wheaten as cited by 3riverschick's source.  Particularly since the bright yellow chick down is the eWh chick down.

When I review translated standard it appears that the Marraduna is a barred Gorria; and Gorria is a black tailed red/brown.  There is some room for question on stuff that may be lost in translation, for example: 

"a) Back: Wide and fall slightly toward the tail caireles abundant and of medium length" makes me think caireles is the saddle area --- or is this wrong?

And for the description of the neck we have "h) Neck: Moderately long, well arched; esclavina abundant, floating on his back." which leads me to believe that the esclavina are the hackles.  Anyone have a more exact translation on this?  It is also confusing because of this line from the color of the rooster: "The cape and caireles are red-orange, especially for his brilliance on the rest of plumage. At the end of the cape feathers presents in its center, a cutting edge black." If the cape is part of the saddle area does this describe the parting of a red/orange saddle over a black tail or black lines running down the center of each saddle feather?  Or does the cape reference the hackles where they end at the back?  If they have black in the hackles, then we have Co present.  This makes more sense as the hens "At the end of the neck have black-tipped feathers."  I think there is probably some dark brown/ginger (Db) in there somewhere too.  This also a black restricter gene that lightens brown/red.   

The red-brown has definitely been diluted in our EO whether by the dilution gene (Di) or something else.  Note that Di also removes the black from tails.

The Zillara is likely the influence of the silver (S) gene over the (s+) gold.  I believe the Beltza is the result of recessive black (rb) and not melanizing (Ml).  Melanizers would also darken the legs whereas recessive black leaves them yellow.

Once I can get a better idea of the correct terminology (via translation) and a better handle on what genes are likely present, I am going to start breeding back to the original color if I can.   I'm going to breed my darkest birds together.  BUT, because I also like the lemony color of the "blondies" and my Golden boy, I'm going to continue with that color too, just naming it the Limoi (Basque word for lemon) EO. 

Since the white legs, excessive black barring, black/gray smuttiness, recessive white and mottling are likely from the Penedesenca influence, those EO won't be in my breeding pens.

Hopefully, I can get my guys back to where they need to be within the next 8 - 10 years (generations.)

So what're your thoughts on the genetics? Any other ideas?  I'm open to suggestions.

Last edited by Laingcroft (2012-09-30 03:00:47)

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#18 2012-09-30 11:33:04

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: All The Pretty Little Colors

Laingcroft, there is lots we have researched and posted on the genetics of the EOs that makes much of the above (although not all) a bit dated.

First I would disagree with 3riverchick on the lliodiana, I think it is a color variety of EO although, until recently thought the be gone. It has been recreated in Spain. Marraduna and gorria were brought to Canada and all EOs in The US and Canada have originated from this flock, I am not sure with a good u der standing or poultry genetics and time if you could extract the other colors or not? Not the naked neck for sure (without crossing with another breed) as that allele is not in the north American EO population. But Belza and Zillara, I am not sure. I have gorria and marraduna. The blond, I like the idea of your name for the new variety as the blondies are not the same as lliodiana and it is great if you are interested I preserving them. I might no the same with the Mille fleur that is coming up.

The paragraph gubi quoted has been better translated by Chestnutridge in her article. The e allele for gorria and marraduna is indeed wheaton for example. Here is out discussion on that paragraph and the article:
http://forums.euskaloiloas.com/viewtopic.php?id=517. Go to the article and take a read, ChestnutRidge did a great job on the final article!!

And the entire breed description (SOP) with what I beleive is the right translation of some of the words you are struggling with has been stickied. We tried not to change the meaning or standard from the Spanish, just added more detail (some of the details does need checking) and translated what detail there was into a format similar to the APA descriptions for recognized breeds. Here is a link to the final (but still room to be improved if errors are found) SOP:
http://forums.euskaloiloas.com/viewtopic.php?id=558

I also encourage you to take a look at the posts under Genetics Study Group as we did cover a bit more over the course of last winter. Lots of the alleles present in the EOs have been discussed and this winter hopefully we will keep going on that discussion.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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