Euskal Oiloa Chicken Forum

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#1 2012-04-12 14:16:38

ChestnutRidge
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From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Body type diagrams from old poultry books

I like to read the old poultry books with expired copyrights on Google books.  I pulled a few diagrams that I found helpful.

http://scratchcradle.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/egg-laying-body-type-poul-hus-feed-21.jpg
http://scratchcradle.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/layer-shape-mcfetridge-1920.jpg
http://scratchcradle.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/utility-types-mcfetridge-1920.jpg

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2012-04-12 14:16:38

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#2 2012-04-12 23:44:23

Susan
Administrator
From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

Very nice CR! A great visual of the angles to look for :)

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#3 2012-04-13 00:15:28

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

I think these are really excellent pictures as well. I wish I could see a visual difference between the hens that laid 245 vs 17 vs 0 eggs but I can't, can anyone else??


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#4 2012-04-13 00:40:01

Susan
Administrator
From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

245 is much less muscled or heavy vs 0. Look how the angle of her chest is much more angular - less round than 0. 245's legs seem further back as compared to 0's. Imagine the lines in the diagram over the two birds. 245's gives a greater angler than the more "round" shape of 0. 0's thighs are also much heavier and I believe 245's back is shorter

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#5 2012-04-13 01:57:35

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

I can see the angles super imposed on them, "0 eggs" is more "barrelly"  and less "shuttlecocky", though the stance of "0 eggs" isn't as easy to compare.  I have to look at some pics of Blondie, I think she has that 245 angle from the drawing, it looks very familiar to me.

Thanks so much for posting these, they are very helpful :thumbs:

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#6 2012-04-13 15:39:53

ChestnutRidge
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From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

It might be a bit easier to see in Google Books, and you could zoom in.

The text is here.  Navigate to section 4.
http://books.google.com/books?id=YxQxAQ … mp;f=false

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#7 2012-04-13 16:14:52

ChestnutRidge
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From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

This is how I interpreted it, although I don't know if I'm right. 
http://scratchcradle.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/body-lines.jpg
O-egg's body seems concave to me while 19-egg's body seems convex.  245-egg's body has more direct lines.

This is my SS, Henny.
http://scratchcradle.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/body-lines-henny.jpg
Her bottom line looks a bit convex and her top is a bit concave.  Right now, she is laying 8 eggs and then takes a day off.  However, she did not lay until she was 9 months old.

I wish I could find a better profile, but Rosie has been one of my best layers.  She lays as consistently as the SS now, but she began about 2 or 3 months earlier.
http://scratchcradle.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/body-lines-rosie.jpg
I think her bottom line is straight while her top is a bit concave. 

I think the top line has a lot to do with the tail shape.  I think I will pay the most attention to the bottom line in my hens, and probably the view from the top and back, aiming for an "open" pelvis.  I think the old timers say you should be able to fit 3 fingers between their pelvic bones.  They probably mean man-fingers, so a bit bigger than my three...

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#8 2012-06-13 16:13:09

ChestnutRidge
Member
From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

I just found another resource but haven't cracked the hypothetical cover yet: http://archive.org/details/callhenscience00hogarich
It's Call of the Hen: Or the Science of Selecting and Breeding Poultry for Egg Production by Walter Hogan, a classic I've heard referred to a few times. 

Also, over on the other board, Blosl posted this picture of a hen who won a laying contest in Maine back in the 1930s:
http://scratchcradle.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/high-product-hen-30s.jpeg

I edited the picture for myself to isolate the shape and thought I'd share.  Not a lovely image, but perhaps helpful:
http://scratchcradle.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/high-product-hen-30s-ed.jpg

I did the same sort of thing once with two EOs, but I selected these pictures for different reasons and then veered off-track.... Later I wished I had used different pictures, but I'll put it here anyway:
http://scratchcradle.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/type-2.jpg

Last edited by ChestnutRidge (2012-06-13 16:13:27)

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#9 2012-06-13 16:48:26

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

I am skeptical. Just because a particular trait appears with another trait doesn't mean it causes it, or will even show the same association in another bird. If you want to improve egg production, the best way is to select for egg production.

Having said that, the pelvic opening is obviously crucial to allow passage of a large egg - but my guess would be that the large eggs "encourage" the pelvic bones to  spread, rather than the other way around. (Unless you're talking about pullets, before they start to lay.)

While there is (of course!) a lot of wisdom in those old-time books, there are also many myths. Telling which is which is the challenge.

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#10 2012-06-14 01:43:01

ChestnutRidge
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From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

Certainly could be. :) I just think it is interesting.  Observation may or may not bear it out. It would certainly be less time-consuming than trap-nesting if it did work.

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#11 2012-06-14 02:52:56

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
Website

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

I think this is interesting and love the history itself.  I agree there is good data in the old books, sometimes the interpretation may have been correct and sometimes not, but I enjoy looking for patterns in anything helps with understanding and prediction to a degree.  Cool images CR!

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#12 2012-06-14 05:29:39

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

It's great to form theories and hypotheses; it's even more important to test them well.

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#13 2012-06-14 18:10:27

Terra-Blue
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From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2012-04-27
Posts: 66
Website

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

These old photos and diagrams are interesting.  I do agree that some of the old time "wisdom" was often not true, and that sometimes it is absolutely correct.

While not exactly the same I think some of the concepts of dog breeding apply to chickens (or anything else).  Originally when the animals (whatever they may be) actually had a purpose (feeding us, herding out flocks, etc.) their breed types accommodated that purpose.  It is easy for us to read standards today not realizing that things that seem unimportant to us it in, may actually have had an important purpose.  That is the sort of wisdom that does get lost along the way in the world we live in today where most of us raise animals because we have a passion for them rather than because we are dependent on them for our livelihood.

Back to structure... an animal having the best possible structure to do their job is vital, but that does not always guarantee that they can do their job, but just that they have the best structure to do so.  I may have a dog with outstanding structure that would allow it to go out all day and do its job, but if it also doesn't have the instinct and mental capacity to do its job the structure is useless. The same is true for a dog that has instinct and mental capacity, but doesn't have the correct structure to do its job.  So both are important.

Transferring this to chickens, I would think that the best structure possible is important, but also the genes to be good producers would come into play as well.  That of course is my theory!  :)


Joni Johnson
Terra-Blue Pyrenean Shepherds
www.terra-blue.net

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#14 2012-06-15 12:37:09

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

At whatever point members have mature EOs in good shape that they feel are close to the SOP we need to take some side profile pictures, lots of them. Other angles might be useful too, front and from directly overhead for example. For me that will not be until fall but maybe it could be a winter project for us?

Using multiple pictures of different birds (best coloring, head shape, body lines, etc) it would be so wonderful to translate those into some color drawings as well as some black and white outlines.  I would love to have those to add to our SOP and to use for evaluating birds.  Maybe the laying capabilities of some of the hens pictured can also be tracked as it would be helful to try to link the two traits if there is a link.

Terre-Blue was it you that said you have some artistic abilities and would be willing to try doing this?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#15 2012-06-15 18:38:24

Terra-Blue
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2012-04-27
Posts: 66
Website

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

Yes, it was me that said I could do some drawings.  Sounds like a great winter project!


Joni Johnson
Terra-Blue Pyrenean Shepherds
www.terra-blue.net

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#16 2012-06-18 13:43:04

Amblecroft
Member
From: Millbrook, Ontario
Registered: 2011-08-03
Posts: 448
Website

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

Now I will have to train my chickens to bait :-)))  I'm sure it easy enough :-)))


Susan Buttivant at Amblecroft,
Chaparral Pyrenean Shepherds and Petits Bassets
http://www3.sympatico.ca/chaparral/amblecroft.html

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#17 2012-06-22 23:59:40

Terra-Blue
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2012-04-27
Posts: 66
Website

Re: Body type diagrams from old poultry books

You are too funny Susan!


Joni Johnson
Terra-Blue Pyrenean Shepherds
www.terra-blue.net

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