Euskal Oiloa Chicken Forum

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#26 2012-02-29 02:43:28

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

Susan wrote:

Then how do Claire's "Blondies" fit in PG?  They don't seem to be barred?

I believe they are barred. Look at their "bloomer" feathers for barring as that is where it is the most obvious. Also look at the hackle feathers. I can see tiny white stripes breaking up the black in my blondies hackles. Even my BHR blondies has barred hackles and she is a very solid blond color otherwise.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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2012-02-29 02:43:28

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#27 2012-03-01 01:43:58

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
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Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

Ok, now tell me about the "milles fleurs" colour pattern we are seeing on many of the hens. Where is that coming from? What allelic designations are represented here??

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#28 2012-03-02 16:15:48

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
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Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

I did some reading of my "Genetics of Chicken Colours The Basics" this morning Susan. It seems there is not a complete understanding of mille fleur even in breeds that are supposed to be that color so this is a tough question for me to answer.

My semi-educated response would be we are seeing the allele for mottled (mo) pop up. Although mottled is labelled as a recessive trait the book indicates that sometime even in a heterozygous individual you get mottling come through. The white mottle at the tip of the feather is not the addition of color it is a "hole" in the color. When the feather starts to grow the mo allele causes there to be no pigment in the first part. When the production of pigment starts again black pigment is produced faster than red pigment so you can get a black band as well. I think in our birds with more black in general you would see both white spots and black. Apparently white tips on the wing feathers might identify birds with mo.

The other possible way to creat a similar effect would be if this is spangling. Even more complicated than mottled and i don't think this is what we are seeing. A combination of the dominant pattern allele (Pg), melanotic black extending allele (MI) and mahogany (Mh) may be able to cause this effect. The Derbyshire Redcap is the only breed like that. There is no white in their spangles...but then they are not barred nor do they have the columbian restriction :huh: The "normal" way of causing spangling is with the Db (dark brown columbian) allele which EOs showing the columbian pattern with black in the hackles do not have.

So in summary I think the mille fleur EOs are showing the effect of the mottled allele mo.

I will put a summary table together of all of the allele we have figured out for the marraduna EO before the end of the day if I can make time....

This book has one line about the Vasca and says they are: eWh/eWh Co/Co (Mh/Mh)


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#29 2012-03-03 14:45:31

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
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Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

To recap, the marraduna Euskal oiloa genetic make-up as discussed so far:

Yellow skin/shanks. w/w. autosomal trait. Microchromosome 24

Wheaten base for the e-series alleles. eWh/eWh. autosomal trait. Chromosome 11.

Columbian restriction. Co/Co. Incompletely dominant autosomal trait.

Barring. B/B or B/-. Sex linked trait. Z chromosome. 13.7 map units from the locus for dermal melanin. A modifier (masks the expression) of dermal melanin.

Single comb.

Inhibitor of melanin disposition in the leg. Id/Id or Id/-. Sex linked trait. Z chromosome. 13.7 map units from the locus for barring.

Feathered neck.

Colored (vs. autosomal white).

Four toes.

Rapid feathering. k+/k+ or k+/-. Sex linked trait. Z chromosome.

Not mottled. Mo+/Mo+. autosomal trait.

Not patterned. pg+/pg+.

Lack of dark brown columbian restriction. db+/db+.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#30 2012-03-03 15:30:29

Amblecroft
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From: Millbrook, Ontario
Registered: 2011-08-03
Posts: 448
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Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

GREAT recap!!  I'm going to print it and I too started my EO Info book today since I hope to have more EOs by tomorrow! 
Great information Popular G.   I've been reading through on and off.   I love genetics!


Susan Buttivant at Amblecroft,
Chaparral Pyrenean Shepherds and Petits Bassets
http://www3.sympatico.ca/chaparral/amblecroft.html

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#31 2012-03-03 17:16:11

ipf
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From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

Just one quibbley detail. . . if this is going to be documented for posterity (and I wouldn't comment otherwise), the correct spelling is, I believe, "wheaten".

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#32 2012-03-03 17:54:08

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

:thanks: fixed to spell wheaten correctly.

We are not done yet folks. Need to write out the alleles and locations and any interactions for the ones above with no information...volunteers??

And there are more alleles we can define and discus for example:
Mahogany needs to be discussed...
Gold for the s-series allele...
Brown egg shell...
Red ear lobes....


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#33 2012-03-03 18:59:05

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

Here I go! I'll be showing the forum to Dr. Crawford this afternoon! PG, thank you so much for your help on this, I have printed out the recap and sOP to bring. Woo hoo showing off our little forum that I am so, so proud of!!

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#34 2012-03-03 19:17:22

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

Enjoy your meeting with Dr. Crawford Susan! We would be very proud to have him join as member 76 =D


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#35 2012-03-04 03:54:10

Maggiesdad
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From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

PG you're amazing! :applause: :applause: :applause:

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#36 2012-03-04 04:30:56

ipf
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From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

Brown egg shell is polygenic - a quantitative trait (for those who know their definitions). At least 13 loci govern this trait. I don't know that any of them have been mapped/IDd by chromosome.
Apparently earlobe colour is too (p153, Crawford). Wild Gallus gallus show considerable vartion.

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#37 2012-03-04 05:39:12

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

Wow ipf. That would be why I have yet to see alleles listed for those traits and why there is such a  phenotypic gradient for them.

We still have a few simple traits we can discuss though.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#38 2012-03-04 13:57:39

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
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Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

One thing Roy mentioned in passing, so this is all I have for now, is when we were looking at Apollo.  He pointed from his hackles to his wing and side is that we are getting silver and gold mixing He kept talking and I didn't want to interrupt, so I forgot to ask what he meant.

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#39 2012-03-04 15:36:58

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

That is possible. Think of the roosters we have seen with no red, just white, grey and black.

I would like to see the picture of Apollo (I assume you didn't take the roo with you :P) he was speaking of. Is it posted somewhere on another thread?

Reading and quoting from the Genetics of Chicken Colours book, the only colors in chickens are black and red. Black pigment is eumelanin, red pigment is pheomelanin. Most colors are based on the e-alleles (wheaten base for marradunas). The other alleles in play are the s-alleles.

For the s-series allele marraduna EOs should be gold (s+/s+). (ipf another dominant mutation ;). This allele is sex linked, located on the Z chromosome. Sex-linked red has more impact on the rooster carrying two copies than the hen carrying one. The effects of the gold allele are seen most on the hackle, saddle and body of the rooster and hen and on the wing triangle and primary wing feathers of the rooster. Silver areas are turned to brown. Silver (S) is incompletely dominant to gold (s+). So a heterozygous rooster may have light yellow hackles and saddle and the shoulder where gold breaks through.

The book says there is also autosomal red which has no symbol and was first hypothesised by Hutt. Ar+ is the symbol they chose to use. It looks to be incompletely dominant. It is the red/brown/buff/yellow on the back and shoulders of the rooster and the breast and body of the hen with a wheaten base. It is hard to distinguish from the S/s male according to the book.

So Dr. Crawford could saying he sees the lack of sex linked red in Apollo OR he could be refering to lack of autosomal red perhaps. Or a combination of both.

Wow I would like to post this diagram from the book. I wonder if it is available on the web? Basically there is a gradient in color where an S/s ar/ar roo is the lightest yellow and a s/s Ar/Ar male is the darkest red.

The next question is what should they be? s/s for sure but I don't think they should have the Ar allele. I think that is where mahogany (Mh) comes into play instead. Wow my head hurts!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#40 2012-03-04 15:42:19

ipf
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From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

Silver and gold - Sex-linked, S and s+, silver (S) incompletely dominant, gold (s+) is wild-type. S inhibits red pigment. Expression of silver can be affected by hormonal levels and influenced by modifying genes.
Since it is sex-linked, females are either S/- or s+/-, and only the male can be heterozygous (S/s) and thus prone to leakage (partial expression of the incompletely recessive s+ allele).

Oops, I see we were both writing at the same time, PG. I'll leave mine  in anyway, just for another view of much the same thing.

Last edited by ipf (2012-03-04 15:43:48)

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#41 2012-03-04 15:52:42

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

I am so glad for you two! I can throw a tidbit out there and you guys make sense of it for us! Now in regards to the Ar allele, are you just meaning Maradunna? What about in Gorrial?

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#42 2012-03-04 15:54:55

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

I am unit 100% certain but I believe the dark red in both marraduna and gorria is the result of Mahogany (Mh) not Autosomal red (Ar). I believe I have read that in one or two papers on the Vasca chicken...


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#43 2012-03-04 15:56:58

ipf
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From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

I'd be wary of assuming that a single (Ar) locus actually exists. Hutt also suggests that red is polygenic, and Crawford discusses why the whole issue (of the genetic basis of red) is so confusing; he too does not suggest a sincle locus for red.

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#44 2012-03-04 16:01:50

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

I wouldn't disagree with you ipf about Ar.

Susan post pics of Apollo. I will post Adonis for comparison. Some of their brothers were almost pure silver, very little red. I wonder if I have pics of them somewhere?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#45 2012-03-04 16:49:46

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

Just have to figure out how to post pics of the Ipad photobucket app and my helper just left for a playdate at her friend's :( also , sorry it was Zeus that I referred to, not Apollo. Give me a minute...


http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad24/Susan7935/chicksusansbirdsandmoreisabrown062.jpg


Here is the pic of Zeus I showed him

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#46 2012-03-04 17:07:30

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad24/Susan7935/chicksusansbirdsandmoreisabrown057.jpg


Pic showing Zeus' wing feathering

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#47 2012-03-04 17:12:45

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

One of the pics I showed of Sparkle


http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad24/Susan7935/chicksusansbirdsandmoreisabrown043.jpg

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#48 2012-03-04 17:14:25

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

A pic of Apollo


http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad24/Susan7935/chicksusansbirdsandmoreisabrown050.jpg

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#49 2012-03-04 17:23:31

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

And how is the mo allele playing into all of this? Like I said before, Roy said Sparkle's tail could be a result of mo, but also niacin deficiency. I seem to have a lot of mottling in my birds though and wonder how best to get rid of it ( even though I love the milles fleur type hens :) )

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#50 2012-03-04 17:47:27

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Topic 3: Euskal oiloa genetics

I assume you know about the chook genetics forum, in which both authors of the chicken colour book are active? Just in case, it's at:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthrea … amp;type=t

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