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#1 2012-01-14 03:00:07

ChestnutRidge
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From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

If you have time to critique...

I'm going to put a page about EOs on my blog.  I've done some research, but a lot of it was through online translators, so I could have definitely gotten some basic facts wrong.  If you guys would be willing to take a look, I would appreciate some critiques/corrections/additions before I make the page public.

Here's the shortlink:  http://wp.me/PKyVy-me

I know the grey font color is hard to read.  For some reason, I can't change that.  It must be built into my free blog's theme.  On some browsers, you can hit control and the "+" button to zoom in a bit or go into the "view" tab to zoom.  You can try that if the grey is illegible for you.

Thanks!

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2012-01-14 03:00:07

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#2 2012-01-14 04:11:02

Maggiesdad
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From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: If you have time to critique...

Only thing I see is you dropped an 's' in the first Basque in parentheses in the paragraph between the Cock and Hen pics...


Other than that -:thumbs: let 'er rip!

Great Job!  :EO:

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#3 2012-01-14 04:49:16

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: If you have time to critique...

Very good, thorough, well written, well referenced.  It's a great story isn't it, I am so glad they did all that work in the 80's!  :EO: 

I'll link to it on the EO.com site articles page and in the Squidoo article.  Let me know the full url when it's published.  Thanks for your links to us. 

Funny, I subscribed to your Blog the afternoon before you posted this!  :thumbsup:

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#4 2012-01-14 13:02:23

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: If you have time to critique...

It's a very well researched and well written article from what I can see! Nice job!

Are the zilarria supposted to have black in the hackles or no? I just noticed in the picture you have there is no black in the hackles of that color variety.

I wanted to pull out the paragraph on morphology where you have all the alleles listed for further review CR but I can't copy paste anything with my iPad. Some of that paragraph looks a bit strange to me. Could you point me to the specific article it came from? Ah....never mind, I found the one in your reference list :).


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#5 2012-01-14 13:18:04

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: If you have time to critique...

From http://euskaloiloa.wordpress.com/retrospectiva/

So were fully defined morphological genes: PR (single peak), ww (yellow skin), Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in leg), popo (four fingers on foot), Na / na (neck covered and naked) , along with the E / e (Black / dark brown), Co / Co (Columbian (restriction of black) /), S / s (silver / gold), Bl / bl, C / c and B / b (barred), responsible color and plumage patterns.

Okay so this is a quote directly from the article you referenced. You see the way (capital letters vs no capital letters, two different alleles vs. just one option) it is written? It is important that this part of your article is exactly the same. For example, for Co / Co all the EOs are this, NONE are Co / co, this means they all are homozygous for the columbian restriction of black. But for other alleles, depending on the color variety, they can vary. The above quote is perhaps a bit better translation as well in some parts.

This happens to be something I am more than a little immersed and crazy about right now so it caught my eye. :chairhide:


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#6 2012-01-14 13:40:22

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: If you have time to critique...

Maybe i am understanding why you started changing stuff....I see single comb is recessive, so should be written pr in their paragraph since all EOs have a single comb. Still....perhaps best to quote it directly.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#7 2012-01-14 14:38:31

ChestnutRidge
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From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Re: If you have time to critique...

Thank you - that is exactly what I needed.  I didn't want to make it public with mistakes, especially when there is so little information available.

The pictures are all from Wikimedia because I didn't want to take anything that wasn't freely liscensed, so that was the only zilarria they had.  I'll look around; maybe if I find a better one I can email the website and ask for permission in broken Spanish. =D

Okay, now the genetic-y stuff, which you know way more about than me, so I will defer to what PG thinks is most correct. 
The originial Spanish from the website says:

Así pues quedaron plenamente definidos los genes morfológicos: rrpp (cresta sencilla), ww (piel amarilla), Id (inhibidor de la deposición de melanina en pata), popo (cuatro dedos en pata), Na/na (cuello cubierto y desnudo), junto a los E/e (Negro/trigueño), Co/co (colombino(restricción del negro)/), S/s (plateado/dorado), Bl/bl, C/c y B/b(barrado), responsables del color y dibujos del plumaje.

Babel Fish translator gave me:

Therefore they were totally defined the morphologic genes: rrpp (simple crest), ww (yellow skin), You go (inhibiting of the melanin deposition in leg), popo (four fingers in leg), Na/na (covered and naked neck), next to the E/e (Black/dark-skinned), Co/co (Columbian (restriction of the black)/), S/s (silverplated/gilded), Bl/bl, C/c and B/b (striped), people in charge of the color and drawings of the plumage.

Which I edited to:

Therefore [the euskal oiloa] were totally defined by the morphologic genes: rrpp (single comb), ww (yellow skin), Id (inhibiting of melanin in the leg), popo (four fingers of length in leg), Na/na (regular and naked neck), E/e (Black/dark-skinned), Co/co (Columbian (restriction of the black)/), S/s (silverplated/gilded), Bl/bl, C/c and B/b (barred) by those in charge of the color and drawings of the plumage.

I just ran it through Google translate which appears a little more similar to yours:

So were fully defined morphological genes: PR (single peak), ww (yellow skin), Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in leg), popo (four fingers on foot), Na / na (neck covered and naked) , along with the e / e (black / dark brown), Co / Co (Columbian (restriction of black) /), S / s (silver / gold), Bl / bl, C / c and b / b (barred), responsible color and plumage patterns.

Google seems to have changed "rrpp" to "PR," "Co/co" to "Co/Co," "E/e" to "e/e," and "B/b" to "b/b"  Also, it traslates "trigueño" as dark brown where Babel Fish translated it as "dark skinned."  Since it's plumage and not skin, dark brown is definitely better.  Google and Babel Fish translate "cresta sencilla" as "single peak" and "simple crest" - I believe this means single comb.  Also, "responsible [for] color and plumage patterns" in Googles makes more sense than "people in charge of the color and drawings of the plumage" so I will also change that.  Ah!  "Four fingers on the foot" makes so much more sense than "four fingers in the leg."  That had thrown me for a loop.  I am going to change that to "four toes."  Thanks for prompting the re-translation!  I might run the rest of it through Google to compare as well.

Now, the genetic symbols.  I didn't them because I don't know what they mean ( :lol: ); I just used the ones from the Spanish version I found.

Here are the symbols from the Spanish blog:

rrpp, ww, Id, popo,  Na/na,  E/e, Co/co, S/s, Bl/bl, C/c [&] B/b.

Here are the symbols you quoted below:

PR, ww, Id, popo, Na / na,  E /e, Co /Co,  S/s, Bl/bl, C/c [&] B / b

It looks like the only differences are the PR or rrpp and Co/co and Co/Co.  Which do you want me to put on the page?  Like I said, I really don't understand what it means.  I understand that the lower case symbols usually mean the recessive form of a trait and that UPPER/lower is heterozygous, but I have no idea what genes create what color combs or how Columbian restriction works, so just tell me which to use. =)

Last edited by ChestnutRidge (2012-01-14 14:39:10)

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#8 2012-01-14 14:41:09

ChestnutRidge
Member
From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Re: If you have time to critique...

And - THANK YOU!!! - You guys are awesome. :jumping: :jumping:

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#9 2012-01-14 16:09:51

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: If you have time to critique...

The more I look closely at this part the more I think you did really well Chestnutridge!

The fact that the google translator changed a few of the alleles is ALARMING to me. It means any translated genetics stuff will need to be checked with a fine tooth comb, both the original spanish and the english translation to make sure nothing was "lost in translation" so to speak :banginghead:

This is what I would translate this portion to:

Therefore [the euskal oiloa] were fully defined morphologically by the genes: rrpp (single comb), ww (yellow skin), Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in the leg), popo (four toes), Na/na (feathered or naked neck), E/e (black or dark brown), Co/co (columbian restriction of black or no columbian), S/s (silver or gold), Bl/bl, C/c and B/b (barred or unbarred), responsible for the color and pattern of the plumage.

I need to check the wording and function of couple of things though...give me a few more hours I need to go grocercy shopping first!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#10 2012-01-15 00:50:43

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: If you have time to critique...

For the translation of "junto a los E/e (Negro/trigueño)", specifically trigueño can translate as "dark blonde", "corn colored" or "ruddy" depending on what translator you type it into. In terms of genetics the e by itself doesn't make sense...it could be e+ (wild type) or eb (brown) or I am wondering if it doesn't mean ewh (wheaton). Wheaton could be descibed as dark blonde etc.  Surfing this is what I found:

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/d … nd-morena/
Trigueña comes from the word "trigo" which means wheat. In other words, wheat-colored, a very light tan.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#11 2012-01-15 01:06:20

Flat Rock Farm
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From: Branchton, Ontario Canada
Registered: 2011-07-03
Posts: 3359

Re: If you have time to critique...

Looks great, nice job Heather :thumbs:

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#12 2012-01-15 01:42:06

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: If you have time to critique...

Well spotted PG.  Looks like I need to correct mine too on Squidoo as I used Google translate.

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#13 2012-01-15 22:43:24

NaturesPace
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From: Augusta county VA, USA
Registered: 2011-12-20
Posts: 915
Website

Re: If you have time to critique...

Looks good and very impressive.

In the first paragraph you need a space after autonomous community link. And I think there are 2 spaces in the second paragraph after "languages of" and "minority groups".


More pictures and videos of chicks. www.outoforderacres.com

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#14 2012-01-16 23:37:33

ChestnutRidge
Member
From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Re: If you have time to critique...

poplar girl wrote:

This is what I would translate this portion to:

Therefore [the euskal oiloa] were fully defined morphologically by the genes: rrpp (single comb), ww (yellow skin), Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in the leg), popo (four toes), Na/na (feathered or naked neck), E/e (black or dark brown), Co/co (columbian restriction of black or no columbian), S/s (silver or gold), Bl/bl, C/c and B/b (barred or unbarred), responsible for the color and pattern of the plumage.

I copied exactly this.  THANK YOU!!! :applause: :cheer: :applause:

poplar girl wrote:

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/difference-between-triguea-and-morena/
Trigueña comes from the word "trigo" which means wheat. In other words, wheat-colored, a very light tan.

That is really neat!  Good research. :) So, for curiosity's sake, does the "E/e(?)" mean that it is black/dark brown which is dominant or covering a recessive tan? :huh:

And - thank you to my copy editors, Maggiesdad and Naturespace!!! :jumping:

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#15 2012-01-16 23:40:44

ChestnutRidge
Member
From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Re: If you have time to critique...

I'm going to link it to my blog now so that it is find-able.  The shortlink will stay the same, but if you want the full link, it will be:

http://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/reso … sque-hens/  (Since you can't see it all, it's ... /resources/euskal-oiloa-basque-hens/)

Thank you all for your help!  If you think of something else I should add/change, please still let me know.  After I finally actually get some EOs ( :duh: ), I'll add some more photos and such.

:EO:

Last edited by ChestnutRidge (2012-01-16 23:41:46)

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#16 2012-01-17 01:02:50

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: If you have time to critique...

For most of them you list the genotype (e.g. ww), but for some, just the alternate alleles (e.g. S/s). For a genotype you need two alleles, and for the genes that matter, I would expect that the allele of preference needs to be homozygous? For some you have the alleles separated by a slash, for others, not. I would suggest consistency - so, my recommendation:

rp/rp (single comb [i.e. not pea or rose or walnut comb), w/w (yellow skin), Id/Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in the leg), po/po (four toes), Na/Na, Na/na, or na/na (either feathered or naked neck), E/E, E/e or e/e (black or dark brown), Co/Co, Co/co or co/co (columbian restriction of black or no columbian), SS, Ss or ss (silver or gold), Bl/Bl, Bl/bl, or bl/bl (black, blue or splash); C/C C/c or c/c (coloured or autosomal recessive white); and B/B, B/b or b/b (barred or unbarred).

For the genes where there are two alleles that are both acceptable, it seems to me that they don't really define the breed at all. Which begs the question, why include those loci in a breed description, if they don't define the breed? Maybe some are acceptable in one variety, and others in others? If so, the genotype should probably be more specific to the individual variety, and homozygous for the allele of choice. I've included the various heterozygotes, but they probably shouldn't be there (except for Bl/bl=blue).

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#17 2012-01-17 02:27:39

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: If you have time to critique...

ipf wrote:

For the genes where there are two alleles that are both acceptable, it seems to me that they don't really define the breed at all. Which begs the question, why include those loci in a breed description, if they don't define the breed? Maybe some are acceptable in one variety, and others in others? If so, the genotype should probably be more specific to the individual variety, and homozygous for the allele of choice. I've included the various heterozygotes, but they probably shouldn't be there (except for Bl/bl=blue).

It is all about which variety you are speaking of ipf. It is a bit of a strange paragraph for that reason but I still found it interesting. In all cases for whatever variety you are referring to, a homozygote would be desirable. So single comb, yellow shanks, inhibitor of melanin deposition and 4 toes define the breed. The rest vary by variety.

I am not sure which variety blue or the coloured or autosomal recessive white alles fit in....


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#18 2012-01-17 02:39:06

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: If you have time to critique...

Chestnutridge so I would say my final suggestion for this paragraph would be:

Therefore [the euskal oiloa] were fully defined morphologically by the genes: rp (single comb), w (yellow skin), Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in the leg), po (four toes), Na/na (feathered or naked neck), E/e (black or wheaton), Co/co (columbian restriction of black or no columbian), S/s (silver or gold), Bl/bl, C/c and B/b (barred or unbarred), responsible for the color and pattern of the plumage.

Based on the translation I think the E/e means black or wheaton. So an actual EO with either have E/E alleles and have a black color base or be e/e (which I think is actually ewh/ewh) and have a wheaton color base.

I should have re-written it after I further looked into the translation, sorry!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#19 2012-01-17 05:30:18

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: If you have time to critique...

Sorry to be pedantic, and ignore me if you wish, but that slash between two alleles has a specific meaning in "genetic-speak" - it means you are referring to the two alleles on a  chromosome pair, the two alleles that make up a single genotype.



So, poplar girl, following your pattern, but adhering to geneticists' conventions, perhaps you could change that to:

Therefore the Euskal Oiloa were defined morphologically by the genes: r and p (single comb), w (yellow skin), Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in the leg), po (four toes), Na or na (feathered or naked neck), E or e (black or wheaten), Co or co (columbian restriction of black, or no columbian), S or s (silver or gold), Bl or bl (black or splash), C or c (coloured or autosomal recessive white), and B or b (barred or unbarred).

The only thing that is then ambiguous is the blue, i.e. the Bl/bl. You could add that in, or not.

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#20 2012-01-17 12:31:23

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: If you have time to critique...

Yes, you are 100% correct ipf, that is much better. And the slash misused is a bad idea. It just makes an area confusing to most extra confusing.

I still wish I knew which variety is supposed to have the splash allele. And the autosomal recessive white allele....I thought I read they selected against that one in the population in fact.

No matter for now. ChestnutRidge one slightly scary looking paragraph has now been translated and corrected such that we hope that the original meaning has been made clearer not lost :funny:

You did a great job of this article CR and I learned some new things reading it. My interest in your article is a compliment (not a criticism!) as you found references new to me and I learned more about our beloved EOs. :please: I hope if you write further articles you will still share them with us for review even after experiencing what happened this time with this innocent looking little paragraph :oops:


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#21 2012-01-17 15:30:51

skeffling lavender farm
Administrator
From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
Website

Re: If you have time to critique...

That is great!  Chestnut Ridge I have link to your article on Euskal Oiloas.com site and just about to update the Squidoo links and I am sure it won't be a problem to update that pesky genetics passage you guys (thanks PG & IPF) hammered out.  I know I used google translate and it is bound to be off

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#22 2012-01-18 02:03:30

ChestnutRidge
Member
From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 251
Website

Re: If you have time to critique...

ipf wrote:

So, poplar girl, following your pattern, but adhering to geneticists' conventions, perhaps you could change that to:

Therefore the Euskal Oiloa were defined morphologically by the genes: r and p (single comb), w (yellow skin), Id (inhibitor of melanin deposition in the leg), po (four toes), Na or na (feathered or naked neck), E or e (black or wheaten), Co or co (columbian restriction of black, or no columbian), S or s (silver or gold), Bl or bl (black or splash), C or c (coloured or autosomal recessive white), and B or b (barred or unbarred).

Okay, is this the E.O.C.F. approved version? =D  If so, I'll put it right up!

poplar girl wrote:

I hope if you write further articles you will still share them with us for review even after experiencing what happened this time with this innocent looking little paragraph :oops:

Absolutely!!! All of this help and debate is exactly what I hoped for.  I enjoyed poking around to find the articles, switch back and forth between languages to figure out what they were saying, and putting them together into something that would hopefully be accurate.  The research and writing was fun, but with so little available (in English :lol: ) on the EO, it is really important to me that it is accurate; I hoped it would be a service and not a disservice, and you have helped me accomplish just that. 

I really appreciate everyone's time and consideration.  :thanks:

skeffling lavender farm wrote:

That is great!  Chestnut Ridge I have link to your article on Euskal Oiloas.com site and just about to update the Squidoo links and I am sure it won't be a problem to update that pesky genetics passage you guys (thanks PG & IPF) hammered out.  I know I used google translate and it is bound to be off

Thank you, and let me know any other important links that you think I should have on the page. 

I think this sort of thing is such fun. =D :EO:

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#23 2012-01-18 02:21:03

skeffling lavender farm
Administrator
From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
Website

Re: If you have time to critique...

:thanks: for your dedication!  I linked to your article from the EO.com and Squidoo and gave it a nice intro!  It is very good. 

Some of the best links we had with pictures of faults etc were broken late summer.  I managed to salvage some translated text when they were still cached and they are in the links area.  But no point linking to them.  I was hoping it was temporary but it wasn't.

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#24 2012-01-18 02:49:50

Skylinepoultry
Member
From: Old Fort, Tennessee
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 222
Website

Re: If you have time to critique...

Great job ChestnutRidge! I wish we could get that video back of the work that was being done over in Basque. That was an Awesome Video.

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