Euskal Oiloa Chicken Forum

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#51 2012-01-09 03:02:37

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

I like him.  He looks  a good size for his age, I'd guess he's under a year old by his spurs. I think there is a touch of black on the top of his saddle, and not sure how far back the hackle black should go, maybe he just has really long ones.  I think his tail is a touch too vertical, I personally like a perky tail, but his is a bit higher than the 45 degrees.  I would love to see a sihouette of what one should look like, that backline.  I think the line of his back is nice, and see that in my old boys (but I think their tails are too vertical too)

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2012-01-09 03:02:37

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#52 2012-01-09 23:17:12

Young Heritage
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From: Gainesville, Georgia
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Posts: 157

Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

Has anyone tried contacting James "Skyline" to let him know you are working on the SOP? We were told to wait until everyone could be part of the discussion and I know he has been busy and not online much.


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#53 2012-01-09 23:58:39

skeffling lavender farm
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

Yes, I can email him.  He was on BYC a few days ago, and I forgot to mention this to him.  Poplar Girl posted this over a week ago, and has been holding off finalizing so everyone get a chance to look and a say.

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#54 2012-01-10 00:07:42

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

Yep it's done, I emailed rather than pm'd so he should get it OK.  :snowman: :thumbsup:

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#55 2012-01-10 02:50:33

ChestnutRidge
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From: Western Virginia
Registered: 2011-07-05
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

skeffling lavender farm wrote:

I like him.  He looks  a good size for his age, I'd guess he's under a year old by his spurs. I think there is a touch of black on the top of his saddle, and not sure how far back the hackle black should go, maybe he just has really long ones.  I think his tail is a touch too vertical, I personally like a perky tail, but his is a bit higher than the 45 degrees.  I would love to see a sihouette of what one should look like, that backline.  I think the line of his back is nice, and see that in my old boys (but I think their tails are too vertical too)

I see what you mean.  The tail is pretty erect.  I do think there is some black in the saddle.  Okay, so no black in the saddle.  Does he have an appropriate amount of black in the hackles?

I would like a sillhouette, too.  At the moment, I am confused about too much color vs. too little color, but I am just going to watch as things develop.


:goodthread: Just fascinating.

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#56 2012-01-11 08:12:17

Skylinepoultry
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From: Old Fort, Tennessee
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

How many chicks is everybody planning on hatching this season for culling?
At this point and time I personally think the first steps are going to be heavy culling of massive hatches. I believe that after three heavy culls ill know what i got and where things need to go from there. I've been studying this for some time now and come to realize that something has been infused into these birds at one time. What it is? Can't say for sure but looks like Penedesenca. One being they figured since it was a Spanish bird too that it would be closer to its native land. Can't help but spot the sprigs in some of them. Let's not forget hardiness. The birds are way to vigorous for a small gene pool. It's there, now it's time to pull it all back out.

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#57 2012-01-11 12:28:28

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

I agree with you Skyline that heavy culling will be needed, I'm sure for a few generations, to slowly get back to a more uniform flock. I will probably end up keeping somewhere between 5-10% of what I hatch this year and of those I will probably only end up breeding half the next year after I study them all winter and further evaluate their traits.

I am not sure if the breed was I intentionally crossed with something else or if perhaps this is just what you get when you collect barnyard chickens from allover the basque country that look like EOs, do a few generations of clean up on the gene pool, and then stop the project. There was probably some contamination of the breeding stock they started with as the breed was on the very of extinction and there probably weren't alot of birds to choose from. Or perhaps there was an intentional cross, you never know, either in Spain or in Canada. Penedesenca would make sense. Side sprigs can show up in any breed even if there was no cross breeding though.

Either way we do need a clear picture (or description as the case might be) of what we are selecting for. Egg production expectations are, for whatever reason, never written in the American breed standards so are not included here. That said it is clearly written how many eggs of what size the breed in supposed to produce and we also need to be selecting for those traits.

Do you see anything in the draft breed standard that does not match with your expectations of what the perfect marraduna EO should look like? Not to say we will get it perfect but it is important to get as close as we can.

Put another way, are you culling (or do you plan to cull) to try to create a flock that looks like this description?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#58 2012-01-11 15:37:14

skeffling lavender farm
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

The white ear and the off coloured legs are also Penny related IMO.  I read a post of Black Horse Ranch once who said he went to Spain and a lot of the barn yard flocks were running mixed with Pennies and EO.  The pennies have been "pure" or a recognised breed at least 50 years longer than EOs.  I imagine it's feral crossbreeding thing when you think about how recently the EOs were snagged out of the wild!  Even the Spanish standards mention the traits that could be Penedesenca-type traits, white ear and non yellow legs.

It could have been later too as we had some interesting mixes Marans and Penedesencas in our early birds from Quebec.  They could easily have hatched from what was sent to the importer.  All the chicks we received looked uniform, 3 look liked X, 3 like Y, 12 like something else, but as they grew up, we had mix and match combs, colours and legs.  I have photos of them all,  we kept about 20 roosters that first winter cos I couldn't ID them and was scared of harvesting something useful/valuable to the breeds whatever they were! 

Side sprigs are recessive, I believe and I imagine many genes control it. With our black pennies here, we had to breed parents with no side sprigs the first few years, and they had lots of red/gold bleed into the black and more than 20% were yellow legged), didn't take long and we got to one side sprig each side and 2010 gave us the best clavell combs yet, they get bigger each generation, and the red and yellow gets less/goes.  We thought there was black copper Marans in them too, lots of Maran combs, red/copper and U shaped backs. 

As far as EOs, I am hoping to hatch a few hundred at least.  Anyone wanting eggs, I will send them to, but now there are more EOs all over Canada, the pressure is off me a bit now!  Any blue leggers or easy to spot breeding-cull females (smaller or lots of black/red), we'll sell locally for friendly layers and pets as soon as we can spot them.  Extra cull-boys we'll get processed at the end of summer.  I have other breeds that stood idle the last year and need to raise some young to replace the aging parents like the Wheaten & Lav Ameraucana and Black Pennies. 
Good question PG, what are you selecting again James?

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#59 2012-01-11 18:21:31

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

I, together with pops and Cjs will be hatching about 300 i believe. Not sure yet how many we will keep. :hatch:

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#60 2012-01-11 18:45:35

Island Girl
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From: Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Isla
Registered: 2011-07-06
Posts: 1403

Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

300 wow, that is so awesome Susan, I am curious as to one thing about raising and culling/selling etc the ones we do not choose for breeding. I know this sounds like an odd question. Do you worry what 'others' will do to the breed once there is more access to the breed? Just thinking and wondering out loud. I will start another thread ;)

XOX Monika

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#61 2012-01-11 19:52:44

Young Heritage
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From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

I plan on hatching around 150 this year and hopefully will be able to double that amount next year.


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#62 2012-01-11 19:55:59

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

That is awesome Young Heritage!  And it sounds like Pops is nearly there! :funny:  IG I answered on the other thread.

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#63 2012-01-12 00:51:59

Skylinepoultry
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From: Old Fort, Tennessee
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

Island Girl wrote:

300 wow, that is so awesome Susan, I am curious as to one thing about raising and culling/selling etc the ones we do not choose for breeding. I know this sounds like an odd question. Do you worry what 'others' will do to the breed once there is more access to the breed? Just thinking and wondering out loud. I will start another thread ;)

XOX Monika

The best way I can answer that question is like this. I own the rights to Cottage Hill French Black Copper Marans and Wheaten Marans. I breed to the Cottage Hill standard. I line breed with them and work with Ron Presley to keep the Cottage Hill name and line pure. Now someone could take a Cottage Hill Line,Bev Davis line and a bunch of other lines and create their own line through selective breeding and culling and call it what ever they wanted. Then the public can decide on whether they like that line. Your birds speak for themselves. Same goes for anything else. I'll be breeding Skyline Poultrys line of Marraduna Basque and everybody else will be doing their own lines unless we work side by side on the same methods of breeding.  So if you want Pure Cottage Hill French Black Copper Marans then you come to me. Now here's a situation that I've been trying to figure out. I'm working on brand new colors of certain breeds and I've been thinking I should have a listing showing people who breed to my standards so that they can say they really have my pure lines. If they don't then they truly can't say they do without my say so.

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#64 2012-01-12 12:32:59

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
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Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

This coming weekend I will be opening up Topic 2 of the Genetics Study Group (which will actually include some genetics ;) ). I think "Genetics terms and definitions" is next.

I am not sure if we are done working on the description, perhaps we won't be for a year or two, but I haven't seen any suggestions for changes to the the wording the past few days so i think it is time to move on. I do think the eye color should be returned to brown perhaps as we seem to have EO chooks with a few different shades or eye color and so i think we should defer to the translation directly from the Spanish version for now. I have no further edits to suggest at this time.

This topic will also be moved to the Breed Standard category but there will always be a link to it from the Genetics Study Group as well.

Sound okay to everyone?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#65 2012-01-12 16:13:18

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

Sounds great PG!  Thanks for all your work on this!  :thanks:

I looked at Blondies eyes, she has the "greenest" of all and they were almost the same colour as her darkest feathers, really just more of an amber gold.  Specky's were the goldy red.  Golden brown in the middle with a darker redder edge.  I think the brown is good if that is the Spanish standard and we have nothing to add.

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#66 2012-01-14 22:27:25

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

Version 3:

BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA)

Euskal oiloa first came into being as a natural breed evenly distributed across farms of the historical territories of Bizkaia, Araba and Gipuzkoa of the Basque Country (Euskal Herria) of Spain.  Recovery and preservation of this breed began in 1975 when Dr. Fernando Orozco and his team at the Department of Animal Genetics INIA recognized the devastating impact that the use of hybrid laying hens for commercial production of the regionally preferred brown shelled eggs was having on the native breed. Based on this work, Dr. Jose Antonio Mendizabal drafted the spanish breed standard. The introduction of basque fowl into North America is relatively recent and the breed has attracted a following in Canada and the United States as a result of the combination of traits for hardiness, attractive color patterns, a friendly temperament, and good egg and meat producing properties.

ECONOMIC QUALITIES
A dual purpose medium weight fowl for production of both meat and eggs. Color of skin, yellow; color of egg shell varying from very light to a rich brown depending on the individual, strain and stage of production.

DISQUALIFICATIONS
White in the ear-lobes. Shanks other than yellow.

STANDARD WEIGHTS
Cock..........8 lbs
Cockerel.....6.5 lbs
Hen...........5.5 lbs
Pullet.........4.5 lbs

SHAPE-MALE
COMB:   Single, medium in size, straight and upright, firm and even on head with five to seven well-defined points. Blade slightly raised from the back of the neckline.
BEAK:  Strong, vigorous and well curved.
FACE:  Smooth.
EYES:  Large and oval.
WATTLES:  Long, thin and smooth, with a rounded lower edge.
EAR-LOBES:  Medium in size, lying close to the face, smooth and lanceolate.
HEAD:  Long and wide.
NECK:  Moderately long. Hackle abundant and flowing over the shoulders.
BACK:  Broad, sloping slightly downward to the tail.  Saddle feathers abundant and medium length.
TAIL:  Moderately large.  Carried at an angle of 45 degrees (45 °) above horizontal. Main tail feathers broad and overlapping. Sickles of medium length, well arched.
WINGS:  Large, well-folded and held tightly to the body.
BREAST:  Broad, deep and well rounded.
BODY AND FLUFF:  Body fairly developed. Fluff moderately full.
LEGS AND TOES:  Lower thighs strong and robust. Shanks rather long, thick, heavy. Toes four on each foot.

SHAPE-FEMALE
COMB:  Single, medium in size, straight and upright, firm and even on head with five to seven well-defined points. Blade slightly raised from the back of the neckline.
BEAK:  Strong, vigorous, nicely curved.
FACE:  Smooth.
EYES:  Large and oval.
WATTLES:  Medium length, thin and smooth, with a well rounded lower edge.
EAR-LOBES:  Rather small, lying close to the face, smooth and lanceolate.
HEAD:  Long and wide.
NECK:  Moderately long.
BACK:  Broad, sloping slightly downward to the tail.
TAIL:   Rather small.  Carried at an angle of 35 degrees (35 °) above horizontal.
WINGS:  Large, well-folded and held tightly to the body.
BREAST:  Broad, deep and well rounded.
BODY AND FLUFF:  Body fairly developed. Fluff moderately full.
LEGS AND TOES:  Lower thighs strong and robust. Shanks rather long, thick, heavy. Toes four on each foot.

MARRADUNA BASQUE

DISQUALIFICATIONS
Entirely white or black feathers in the sickle or main tail feathers. Entirely white feathers in the the primary or secondary wing feathers.

COLOR-MALE

COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EAR-LOBES:  Bright red.
BEAK:  Yellow.
EYES:  Brown.
HEAD:  Plumage, finely barred with white and golden-red.
NECK:  Hackle finely barred with white and light golden-red with a narrow black stripe, irregularly barred with white, extending down the middle of each feather. Front of neck same as breast.
BACK:  Barred dark golden-red. Saddle finely barred lustrous dark golden-red.
TAIL:  Main tail alternating bars of black and white. Sickles the same as the main tail with lustrous greenish black. Coverts black and white barring, the white barring gradually turning to dark golden-red approaching the saddle.
WINGS:  Front and bows barred white and medium chestnut red. Secondary coverts barred white and dark golden-red. Primaries barred white and black with upper edge golden-red. Primary coverts white and black barred edged with golden-red.
BREAST:  White and golden-red barred.
BODY AND FLUFF:  Body irregularly barred with white and golden-red similar to the breast. Stern irregularly and indistinctly barred with white and golden-red. Fluff ivory.
LEGS AND TOES:  Lower thighs indistinctly barred with white and golden-red. Shanks and toes yellow.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS:  Ivory

COLOR-FEMALE
COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EAR-LOBES:  Bright red.
BEAK:  Yellow.
EYES:  Brown.
HEAD:  Golden-red
NECK:  Dark golden-red. Lower neck feathers with a black stripe, slightly and irregularly barred with white, extending down the middle of each feather. Front of neck similar to breast.
BACK:  Golden-red.
TAIL:  Main tail black edged with golden-red. Shaft golden-red.
WINGS:  Front and bows dark golden-red. Bar and secondaries golden-red. Primaries golden-red with lower web of first few primary feathers black transitioning to golden-red. Primary coverts black edged with golden-red. When the wing is folded in the natural position only the golden-red color shows.
BREAST:  Light golden-red.
BODY AND FLUFF:  Light golden-red with faint and indistinct white barring. Stern irregularly and indistinctly barred with white and light golden-red. Fluff ivory.
LEGS AND TOES:  Lower thighs light golden-red. Shanks and toes yellow.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS:  Ivory


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#67 2012-01-14 22:45:40

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

Hutt, Genetics of the Fowl pgs 16-17:

...It is evident from the foregoing that there can be no hard and fast rule about what consitutes a breed or variety. A breed is really a group of fowls related by descent and breeding true for certain characteristics which the breeders agree to recognize as the ones distinguishing the breed...

Usually the breeders who have produced a new breed or variety draw up a set of specifications which are supposed to describe in detail the shape, color, and other characteristics of the new production...Since shape is difficult to describe in exact terms but nevertheless in considered so important as a breed characteristic, it is perhaps inevitable that breed standards should be replete with well-intended but noncommittal adjectives and adverbs...This is probably no harm to anyone...

Breed standards can be criticized from the standpoint that they are unduly concerned with colors, comb characters, and other fancy points. The shapes prescribed depend upon the type of plumage as much as the body conformation, or more...

To a limited extend a breed is an inbred race; i.e., the elimination of characters not wanted and the constant selection from the breed charateristics desired have resulted in each long-established breed being relatively homozygous for a certain set of genes...


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#68 2012-01-15 01:50:14

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

Makes sense.  I think Naturespace asked me about a little while back that with respect to the EOs.

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#69 2012-01-15 16:33:53

nuthatch333
Member
From: Red Deer, Alberta
Registered: 2011-11-15
Posts: 29

Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

I think the version 3 standard is excellent. Perhaps it should be put on a sticky for quick reference. A photo of what we consider close to  ideal would be nice to post with it again for quick reference. In due course we could have a drawing of the ideal which is sufficiently vague to allow for interpretation but still give a direction for breeders. I know type is most important to judges and it may be too early yet for a drawing but a silhouette for shape would be important to come up with, I know I look very closely at the top line of the bird when making culling choices, although feather colour is what visually defines the breed to spectators, type seems to outweigh it in the judging. The description is really good, and a visual reinforcement of it would help people like myself. I take a picture of the standard out with me to my coop when making culling choices I find it helps immensely, but it may be to soon to be able to do that with EOs.
Anyway PG you have done an amazing job with the standard, hats off to you. :wine:

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#70 2012-01-15 17:14:31

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

Thank you for your compliments nuthatch333. I am certain when we look at this description a few weeks or months down the road we will find fault, but one must start somewhere! Lisa I would say it is ready for you to share with your APA judge contacts. That may also bring to light some flaws.

I think a sticky of just the breed standard (version 3) and some well chosen pictures is a great idea nuthatch333. I will see if I can make it so (I have never made a sticky yet but it looks very easy). Are there specific pictures from this thread (or elsewhere) anyone can see that would be the best choices to post along with it for now?

I would also really like a drawing of the breed for reference. I am not sure how to go about obtaining one but I also see huge value in having that drawing posted alongside the SOP and to carry with me to the coop. I would imagine that there is one in Spain, does anyone have any contacts that may be able to assist?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#71 2012-01-15 22:17:19

Maggiesdad
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From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Topic 1: BASQUE (EUSKAL OILOA) BREED STANDARD

That would be lys, wouldn't it?  :net:

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