Euskal Oiloa Chicken Forum

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#1 2011-06-30 02:44:04

Young Heritage
Member
From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

I am in the U.S. and can only find one bloodline/breeder to get EOs from. What problems will I run into when trying to breed to improve the genetics? Is it possible or likely to be able to improve the genetics with just brothers and sisters to start with? How long does it take normally before a closed flock needs new blood or is dependent on to many variables to answer?


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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2011-06-30 02:44:04

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#2 2011-06-30 03:45:52

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

One of the reasons for starting this forum is to do this breed justice and  hopefully the collective intelligence :Crazy: shared it the group will help the whole breed!

I know Skyline has some ideas and a mentor (and a lot more breeding experience than we have) and Eric Rivard sent me a guideline back in the winter, and I just recently went to a chicken seminar where they pretty well reiterated it.  They said have 2 line minimum, only breed brother to sister once, then breed fathers to daughters (one line) and mothers to sons (another line), how long that works was variable but should work well for a "long time" guess that is what we won't know til we try.  :huh:

Eric suggested organization (however informal) to help keep track of these beauties and find sources.  He sent me this detail plan of arrangements of pens and numbers to reduce inbreeding.  I haven't had time to digest it, it has been hectic here and not likely to get better this week.

"+++++++++++++++post this++++++++++++++++++++++

It is a common prejudice among chicken keepers that inbreeding is per say, a bad thing.
Successful breeders, however, use it a lot. It is a good method if you use it wisely.
Inbreeding will bring to the surface any quality as it will for any hidden (not dominant) weaknesses.
Obviously, the first and most important rule is only to breed from healthy, vigorous stock, *always*.
But if you do it careful inbreeding is a good method to stabilize whatever features you aim for. “

A proven way to save a breed in very limited blood lines conditions, Saying that one year = one generation you need to cross generation and cross-pens in a specific way starting with 2 different bloodlines if possible having 4 pens is better but here you need a minimum of 2 pens of at least 5 hens and a rooster
_Breeding with a 2-pen option) 5 or more hens 12 is the best, with a rooster
_ year 2 getting the father with the young pullets and mothers with a young rooter and so on every year but you need to aim for the 4 pen option
_2 pen option) if you have 4 or less pullets per pen, you will need to get a 2-3 new young roosters every so many years, even if they come from the same farm in 2008, chance is that G-Parents are  25- 50% related after 3 years of controlled breeding, you can consider them as very low related with yours and get a few roosters from that breeder,
If your goal is just keeping the 2 pen option, get bird from 1 seller per year, keeping seller #2 for next breeders purchase an other year, unless there is a real problem with the birds you got them hurry and got to seller #2 and find a seller #3

_Breeding with 4-pen a option with at least 5 hens per pen this option offers you the opportunity of being self efficient for a very long time
When you  bring in new blood from reliable breeders, if possible you can breed those line separately in a fifth pen for a year just to see what offspring's look like before breeding them in your lines

year 1- having pen A and C with older roosters on young hens + pen B and D older hens and young roosters
year 2- fallow the 2pen option with pen A+B and the same with C+D
year 3- fallow the 2pen option with pen A+D and the same with C+B, but always having 2 generation per pen
year 4- fallow the 2pen option with pen A+D and the same with C+D and so on
Pen A/C or B/D never go together
After a few years you get a large flock of birds without the inconvenient off fertility and laying problems and , you’re on your way even faster getting over 300-500 chicks to select from. Choosing your best hen and best rooster from the all 4 lines (2 male lines and 2 female lines) and 1000 chick in the second years keeping the only the best if you reach those numbers you may need to kill a few as they grow and you sort them for selection, but you need get rid of the rest you will be hatching a short period per generation anyways so you will have plenty of eggs. Keep at least and I say minimum, 4 roosters from your chicks. (2 per pen of your young roosters pens to come but use only one at a time.)
Went you have put a rooster in a pen do not under any circumstance put that rooster in a different pens the same year with 2 rooster you can ether switch the 2 same roosters in the same pen and change the matting rooster if by any bad chance he dies or gives you off colour chicks at hatch 2 rooster for each pen is not to many don’t forget you will be using those YOUNG rooster next year, As said say minimum 4 rooster because if you loose one you only have 3 left and if you loose 2 you only have 2 left for 2 pen's and the worst is if you loose 3 you end-up with a pen with no roosters, therefore loosing a year as, you never put a young male with young females nor you put a rooster in 2 different pens the same year or at lest until the breeds is genetically safe,  4 generations keeping 50 female breeders (keeping 20 layers of  the breed is only genetic surviving and anything could happen and send you back to the beginning of the 2 pen process )

Knowing you need 4 pens for the breeders, most will assume you need 4 pens for the chicks... well no you can put all your same age chicks in one pen but there is a BUT....
Marking your chicks is crucial, mixing A with A's or B/ B's C/C or D/D can happen as you change the pullets and leave the rooster in their pen for 2 years
Unless you mark them you will get out of tracking getting ± 100 chicks per week with 20 hens, yeas you want to hatch them all and keep the best as breeders
Toe punch is not safe enough, you need to be 100% sure went you pick up a bird, in what pen it was born in, therefore knowing were to put it for breeding.
When tacking them out of the Bator, cutting off a nail is the best way to do it but be drastic cut off completely the lump at the end of the toe, if you cut only half of the lump the nails grow back and you loose track. Yeas I'm sure it will hurt them a little and some will bleed, but they don’t die and wont change any thing for them in the future, this is also done on commercial breeders were the roosters have their rear nail cut off to avoid cutting the females wend breeding. Human fingernail cutter is the best to perform this "toe trimming"
It is up to you to mark the first or second toe as A B C or D but each pen needs to have his or her own toe mark.
Once marked put all your new-hatched chicks to together, using only one pen for each age, you will save space.

Other point 1, limit your future breeding birds hatches to a 5-6 weeks period, it helps wend mating your birds they will be about the same age in the same pen,
Having same age per pen, will make it easier to spot out the ones lying and the one that is not a good of a layer or not the right size for the breed
Other point 2, i.e.: on the first year of pen A and C were your young pullets are, keep more pullets than needed, your best that you chose for their colour of them spot your best layers and keep them for the second year of their 2-year breeding cycle
========================================================================

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#3 2011-06-30 10:50:28

Young Heritage
Member
From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

As I am new to breeding, this is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Thanks and be sure to ;post anymore you may have =D


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#4 2011-06-30 10:55:41

Young Heritage
Member
From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

Also if we can find out what other breeds made this breed originally you can selectively cross breed those with the EOs and also improve vigor, introduce new blood, and keep the traits that make this bird what it is. Just can take a long time to get the bad stuff back out that it can introduce but time is not an issue for me.


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#5 2011-07-01 00:43:42

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

That certainly is an option, a good idea!   I would love to hear how this is done when someone gets started with that route.  I am really pretty new to breeding, though we have had chickens 4 years.  We have started with a lot of hatchery chicks and just got more serious in the last year, and deciding to sell the farm has ground things to a halt this year. :huh:

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#6 2011-07-01 03:35:57

Young Heritage
Member
From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

I have only read about it of course so I do not know how it would work out in reality. I have a long time to work with these so I guess I will find out eventually one way or another :)


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#7 2011-07-01 04:58:19

Skylinepoultry
Member
From: Old Fort, Tennessee
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 222
Website

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

Regardless of any importation if it happens, I'll be starting new blood come late this year to early 2012. Ron Presley has given me a base to start with and it'll just be process and elimination until all traits are back. That charming personality is the winner though. A new gene pool will happen on my side. just cant say when it'll be ready.

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#8 2011-07-01 11:52:30

Young Heritage
Member
From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

If you haven't noticed yet I will am already dedicated to this breed so let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I can't imagine it being a cheap and easy task to get this done. With only being 2 hours away from you I am willing to do most anything to help get these birds going in the US. I know some people like to do things themselves but could you imagine getting SQ stock imported in the US? It would take 10 to 20 years off of the process to get current stock to SQ / Pure bloodlines. I am up for the long haul but why recreate the wheel if not needed? I understand it is good to have a backup plan since the importing thing may be too costly or hard to get someone in Spain to do the exporting forms and tests. Also, how are we gonna get all of the different varieties if we do not import them? I have not seen anyone here or in Canada that has anything other than Gorria , Zilarra, and Marraduna. I have not seen anyone with Beltza or Leposoila. Just my 2 cents worth and of course I want all varieties.:whistle:


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#9 2011-07-01 12:20:43

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
Website

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

Hey young heritage, have you seen Zilarra up here?  Where? =D  I love black chickens, I could handle some Belzas! :love:

It is a great idea to do the imports of SQ.  Aren't they sleek and maradunnas so brown?  Looks like we have definitely have extra black.

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#10 2011-07-01 18:37:55

Young Heritage
Member
From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

I seen a white one on someones pic a few days ago. I assumed it had Zilarra in it because of the dominant white. They are the only variety to have that much white, correct? I would imagine a lot of the EOs we see in the US and Canada are mixed in variety and possibly breeds. Just my opinion after seeing the SQ pics from Spain.


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#11 2011-07-01 19:27:18

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
Website

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

We have definitely seen Penedesenca influence.  Blue legs and clavell combs!  Aren't they sleek in those show quality pics.  My old Euskal oiloa rooster is not a bad colour ('cept for the white in his tail) but he is way wider than those in some of those new links, almost more marans type.  This is going to be fun figuring out.....

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#12 2011-08-12 02:31:48

3riverschick
Member
From: Ligonier, in Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: 2011-08-11
Posts: 64
Website

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

Hi,
  Where can I see epics of the SQ S[anish birds?
Thanks,
Karen in PA


Karen Tewart
"The present is best served when we remember the past."

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#13 2011-08-12 04:32:26

skeffling lavender farm
Administrator
From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

Lys (Sebastopol) posted some on the BYC thread page 22 I think,

http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/v … 5&p=22

I need to post them here.  Gotta go though, past my bedtime.  ;)

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#14 2011-10-16 14:00:30

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

some interesting info on how to keep a trio of a rare breed going where you have no chance of getting new blood. 
http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/v … 24&p=1


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#15 2011-10-16 14:26:31

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

I needed this... It's great how this forum is already serving the breeds (and my) needs! :thumbs:

Last edited by Maggiesdad (2011-10-16 14:26:52)

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#16 2012-03-02 00:30:16

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

I came across this link on PSO today.
http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/issue … flock.html


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#17 2012-03-02 01:24:54

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

That's a keeper too, thanks gubi!  :applause:

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#18 2012-03-02 20:37:00

Young Heritage
Member
From: Gainesville, Georgia
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 157

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

gubi wrote:

I came across this link on PSO today.
http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/issue … flock.html

Thanks, more wonderful info. :)


FBCM and Euskal Oiloa

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#19 2012-03-02 20:48:57

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

One comment on the aticle in Gubi's link - it says:

"For instance, brother to sister matings tend to be the most intense form of inbreeding. However, sire to offspring and dam to offspring are less intense. How can this be? A parent only gives its offspring half of its DNA, the other half coming from the other parent. Whereas, brothers and sisters can be nearly identical in DNA and this type of mating sometimes results in loss of size and increase in faults—like crooked beaks."

This is NOT true. Sibling matings are equally "intense" (i.e. produce equally inbred offspring) as parent-offspring ones.
While an offspring inherits EXACTLY half of each parent's genes (not considering sex chromosomes and mitochondria DNA), the offspring of a mating between full-sibs inherits ON AVERAGE half of the original mother's genes and half of the original father's. As the article suggests, brother and sisters "can be nearly identical in DNA" (i.e. inherit pretty much the same genes from each parent); however, they are equally likely to be at the other end of the scale, and inherit pretty much different halves of each parent's genome, and there is no way ot tell by looking at them. There is a whole range from 0 to 1 for degree of genetic similarity between full siblings, but the average expectation of inbreeding in the progeny is exactly the same as for parent-offspring matings.

Last edited by ipf (2012-03-02 20:50:01)

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#20 2012-03-02 21:17:04

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

Would there be any reasonable explanation in your opinion ipf that there is a common recommendation with poultry to mate father to daughter and mother to son but you would rarely see a recommendation to mate brother to sister? This article is far from the first one I have read recommending that.

Interesting that if you just let everyone run together and "do their thing" you would need to maintain a flock of 20 breeding rooster and about 200 hens according to this fellow. Not many individuals are capable of keeping a flock of one breed and variety that large.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#21 2012-03-02 21:55:18

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: Closed Genetic Flocks.....What to do?

I've also seen that recommendation frequently. Possible benefits: if you mate parent-offspring, at least one of them will be a bit older, and survivability is a desirable trait in itself. Also, you'll have had more time to evaluate the other traits that only develop fully with age.

But the inbreeding coefficient for offspring from both types of matings (asuming no previous inbreeding) is 0.25. (Don't take my word for it; it's well documented on the web).

I might guess that there's a certain amount of parrotting going on; someone reads it, or heard wise old Fred say it, so passes it on as wisdom.   I'm just sticking to the genetics of it.

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