Euskal Oiloa Chicken Forum

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#1 2014-01-12 16:08:45

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Inbreeding: How much is too much?

Most of you guys know that I pair breed my EOs. This allows me to learn more about the genetics that each bird has even if they are hidden. It also allows me to monitor and manage how closely related the birds I am planning to mate are.
Inbreeding (breeding of related individuals) is a huge reality for those breeding EOs.

Inbreeding is also a tool that breeders use to increase the number of desirable traits and bring to the surface and eliminate undesirable traits in their animals.
Some of the old poultry literature will recommend inbreeding (sometimes called linebreeding) where matings of father to daughter and mother to son are recommended. Lots of the current information also says inbreeding in poultry is not something to be too worried about.

Inbreeding can also cause problems. It can decrease fertility or hatchability. It can also reduce the ability of an animal to fight of infections or diseases.

There is a fair amount of literature out there but here is an article Heather wrote on inbreeding:
http://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012 … fficients/

With the database I use to keep track of my birds it also shows me the inbreeding coefficient or how inbred my chicks will be if I mate two birds. Some that I am mating I would consider unrelated (even though another generation or two back they may be), for example if I mate a SLF to a BHR EO I would consider them unrelated. Others I am considering mating would have in inbreeding coefficient up to 25% (this would be like mating a brother and a sister if their parents were not related).

So how much inbreeding is too much in others opinions or experience? Would you mate a father to daughter? Or a brother to a sister?
How much are you tracking your birds bloodlines to know how inbred they are?
Is anyone seeing problems with poor fertility, hatch rates or immune systems in their EOs?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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2014-01-12 16:08:45

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#2 2014-01-12 16:29:28

Flat Rock Farm
Member
From: Branchton, Ontario Canada
Registered: 2011-07-03
Posts: 3359

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

:goodthread:


"So how much inbreeding is too much in others opinions or experience? Would you mate a father to daughter? Or a brother to a sister?"

Myself I don't inbreed, the first year I did as I had no other birds to breed with.  That year I got a lot of crooked toes, so I figured I was not going to do that again and sourced birds and eggs from other sources.  Since that year I have had not one crooked toe.

"How much are you tracking your birds bloodlines to know how inbred they are?"

I don't keep paper records or leg band my birds but I keep a mental track of who is who and where they came from. :Crazy: don't laugh, that's my system and it works for me, lol

"Is anyone seeing problems with poor fertility, hatch rates or immune systems in their EOs?"

I have not had any problems with fertility, last year eggs I set were all fertile.  Hatch ability was good, every hatch I do I usually have some that don't make it to the end, not just the EO's my other breeds as well.  Thinking that is more something to do with a incubation issue.   No problems with immune systems all are good strong hearty birds.

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#3 2014-01-14 17:27:31

hollowridge
Member
From: Lunenburg, County, Nova Scotia
Registered: 2013-03-25
Posts: 259

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

Flat Rock Farm wrote:

:goodthread:


"So how much inbreeding is too much in others opinions or experience? Would you mate a father to daughter? Or a brother to a sister?"

Myself I don't inbreed, the first year I did as I had no other birds to breed with.  That year I got a lot of crooked toes, so I figured I was not going to do that again and sourced birds and eggs from other sources.  Since that year I have had not one crooked toe.

"How much are you tracking your birds bloodlines to know how inbred they are?"

I don't keep paper records or leg band my birds but I keep a mental track of who is who and where they came from. :Crazy: don't laugh, that's my system and it works for me, lol

"Is anyone seeing problems with poor fertility, hatch rates or immune systems in their EOs?"

I have not had any problems with fertility, last year eggs I set were all fertile.  Hatch ability was good, every hatch I do I usually have some that don't make it to the end, not just the EO's my other breeds as well.  Thinking that is more something to do with a incubation issue.   No problems with immune systems all are good strong hearty birds.

Can we ask you about the crooked toe?
We were wondering if you bred any of the birds with crooked toes?  We have birds that have crooked toes, now, they are our best layers and they are Australorps.  We got rid of the rooster and kept the Rooster from Riverbends E.0. eggs.  So the rooster is totally non related.  If we breed, him with our crooked toe hens will that trait show up in the offspring or with it be gone in your thoughts due to the no related issue? 

We have been trying to find information on this problem, but not enough that we can find to answer our question.  Some have said they never had issues if hatched by a broody mom, but it didn't say if the broody mom had a crooked toe.
(sorry tried to just quote that one line and didn't know how to do that)

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#4 2014-01-14 18:26:11

Flat Rock Farm
Member
From: Branchton, Ontario Canada
Registered: 2011-07-03
Posts: 3359

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

HR I don't know about the your Australorp hen with the crooked toes, in her case it may have been an incubation problem.  I just know with what I have found with my EO's is I seemed to only get the crooked toes the first year that I bred hatch mates together.  So I culled them the second year, sourced eggs and birds from other sources and since then I have not had any more crooked toes :huh:  I am not line breeding.
So I am not sure what ratio if any of crooked toes you will get breeding the non related rooster to your crooked toe girls??  Maybe someone else can answer that one for you :thumbs:

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#5 2014-01-14 20:14:28

hollowridge
Member
From: Lunenburg, County, Nova Scotia
Registered: 2013-03-25
Posts: 259

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

Thanks FRF, Yeah if you didn't bred them then you wouldn't know if that problem went away!  Thanks anyway!

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#6 2014-01-14 21:21:46

Amblecroft
Member
From: Millbrook, Ontario
Registered: 2011-08-03
Posts: 448
Website

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

It might be nice to have some sort of listing about breedings of desirable and undesirable traits and what people's experiences have been.
Like I said in another post, I bred a rooster with side sprigs to hens without and did not get any side sprigs.
I bred a rooster with more black on the chest to hens without black and got no black. 
I've only had one crooked toed rooster and that was from straight toed parents.


Susan Buttivant at Amblecroft,
Chaparral Pyrenean Shepherds and Petits Bassets
http://www3.sympatico.ca/chaparral/amblecroft.html

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#7 2014-01-15 00:08:42

Lisa
Member
From: near Arthur, Ontario, Canada
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 649

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

Susan,

Whatever you did to convince your birds not to throw the sidesprigs and black, I wish we could patent it! I bred a roo with a serious clavell comb because I liked a lot of other things about him - most of his boys had the comb, and about half of his girls. I also bred two roos with a little black on the breast to girls with a little black (all gorrias), and got a LOT of black as a result - most of the boys had almost solid black breasts, and many of the girls were more black breasted than red. I've done a hard cull - hopefully this year will be more red! Was there a special incantation you said over the incubator??? =D


When all else fails, go spend time with your chickens. :)

Pens are currently filled with Red Cuckoo (Marraduna) and Red Basque (Gorria) breeders, Spitz, and Seramas.

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#8 2014-01-15 02:05:08

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

I bred a big beautiful EO pullet with a crooked middle toe to a roo that would have been related to her with no crooked toes and I got about 80% chicks that developed crooked toes. Other hens with straight toes (related to him) I had about 10% with crooked toes. Hen unrelated to him and I had no chicks with crooked toes. So crooked toes are definitely genetic, I would say recessive but I can't be sure, and there may be more than one gene involved (again can't say for sure).

Side sprigs, one of my favorite roos for all other traits has a large side sprig. I bred him to several hens/pullets with no side sprig and only had about 5-10% of the chicks show side sprigs.

Feather stubs...2 years ago I bread 2 EOs with feather stubs and ALL the chicks had them.

I think we need to keep in mind that some traits are recessive so can "hide" in a bird. In my experience it seems like feather stubs, crooked toes and mottling fall into that category. Other traits I think the genetics are more complicated such as side sprigs, I read somewhere that side sprigs are caused by two different genes.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#9 2014-01-15 03:20:40

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

I still don't have enough experience to answer with conviction.

But after reading countless hours over the past two years, my plan is something like this -

Line breed to preserve the traits of the sire and dam
Inbreed to lock the traits in at the right time
Outcross when fertility drops (preferably to line related to your flock, ie have a partner in breeding)
Know the pedigree, but breed chickens, not the paper
Go slow, go down the middle of the road, keep it simple
Always, vigor
Breed to the Standard
Have fun
Eat eggs
Eat chicken

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#10 2014-01-16 18:11:23

Island Girl
Member
From: Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Isla
Registered: 2011-07-06
Posts: 1403

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

poplar girl wrote:

Most of you guys know that I pair breed my EOs. This allows me to learn more about the genetics that each bird has even if they are hidden. It also allows me to monitor and manage how closely related the birds I am planning to mate are.
Inbreeding (breeding of related individuals) is a huge reality for those breeding EOs.

Inbreeding is also a tool that breeders use to increase the number of desirable traits and bring to the surface and eliminate undesirable traits in their animals.
Some of the old poultry literature will recommend inbreeding (sometimes called linebreeding) where matings of father to daughter and mother to son are recommended. Lots of the current information also says inbreeding in poultry is not something to be too worried about.

Inbreeding can also cause problems. It can decrease fertility or hatchability. It can also reduce the ability of an animal to fight of infections or diseases.

There is a fair amount of literature out there but here is an article Heather wrote on inbreeding:
http://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012 … fficients/

With the database I use to keep track of my birds it also shows me the inbreeding coefficient or how inbred my chicks will be if I mate two birds. Some that I am mating I would consider unrelated (even though another generation or two back they may be), for example if I mate a SLF to a BHR EO I would consider them unrelated. Others I am considering mating would have in inbreeding coefficient up to 25% (this would be like mating a brother and a sister if their parents were not related).

So how much inbreeding is too much in others opinions or experience? My first generation of chicks were from breeding a SLF hatched roo with Susan hatched hens. This was as far apart as I could get at the time and I just couldn't bring myself to mate brother to sister. Would you mate a father to daughter? This is a yes also last years chicks would have been breeding son back to a possible mother Or a brother to a sister? This is a no
How much are you tracking your birds bloodlines to know how inbred they are? apparently I need to make some kind of chart like a family tree with names as I am starting to feel like I am losing the memory battle!!
Is anyone seeing problems with poor fertility, hatch rates or immune systems in their EOs? I had good fertility here at home but a few reports on mailed out hatching eggs were not so good, now there are many different factors involved with that so not sure I should even consider it. Again my own hatch rates were very good, sent eggs imo, not so good but there is that 'many different factors involved again'. I feel that my EOs are robust although I have had a couple people tell me that a hen of theirs seems to have a blindness issue??

:goodthread:

XOX Monika

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#11 2014-01-17 03:02:38

Amblecroft
Member
From: Millbrook, Ontario
Registered: 2011-08-03
Posts: 448
Website

Re: Inbreeding: How much is too much?

I don't know what spell I cast but I feel very lucky I got some eggs to hatch and in my eyes they possess the "allure" of the Euskal Oiloa.   

Another feature of the rooster with the side sprigs was his stature.  He is truly a moderately sized bird compared to the other roosters I had.  His size was disappointing, but like I've said earlier, the cockrel he produced is huge!  The hen's aren't small either. 

As with all animal breeding we all are hoping for that pearl to appear.  :hatch:


Susan Buttivant at Amblecroft,
Chaparral Pyrenean Shepherds and Petits Bassets
http://www3.sympatico.ca/chaparral/amblecroft.html

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