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#1 2013-09-30 15:35:20

Lisa
Member
From: near Arthur, Ontario, Canada
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 649

Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

Feedback from Judge Elton Minnich from the Colwyn 2013 - with many, many thanks! =D

Judge Minnich works a lot with 4H when he is at home, so when he judged the eo’s, he worked with us the same way. He had done some research on the birds before he arrived at the show, including studying our draft standard. He discussed what eo’s should look like, then he went through and judged our birds for their compliance to standard on the day that he saw them. This included the APA point system for the various aspects of the birds, since they were being judged at a show. But he was also kind enough to say “today, we put this bird ahead of the other one for these reasons.... but the other one shows more potential when her (breast, tail, etc.) matures, so she will likely be a better bird”

At our request, he focused more on what the “barn” should look like during our discussions, and discussed the “paint job” less (but they were judged with all aspects in mind).

Please keep in mind that this was one judge’s opinion/suggestions on a crazy, busy day with a breed that was not very familiar to him. We think Judge Minnich was extremely helpful, and we are very grateful for the time that he took with us!

Head
•    Standard says “long” – very few other birds say this. This is the distance from where the beak joins the head to the back of the skull. Most birds say “moderate” or “medium” – this makes eo’s different from most chickens.
•    Standard says “wide” – this is the distance across the skull sideways (like from one ear to the other). Many other breeds also say wide.
•    Put them together – you get a rectangle head, not a square or rounded head. Look for the rectangle.
•    Judge made the point that heads are worth 28 points out of 100, so they are important.

Neck
•    Standard says “moderately long” – many other breeds say “medium in length” and a few say “rather long” or "long"

Comb
•    Should be proportional to the size of the head, not exaggeratedly big

Back
•    Standard says “broad” – this is quite a common description. He suggested we look at the birds from the top, and watch out for those that “pinch in” just before the tail – this is not desirable.

Tail
•    Standard says “moderately large...main tail feathers broad and overlapping” for males, and “rather small” for females. The judge noted that there should be 5-7 main tail feathers on each side of the tail for both genders, and many of our birds didn’t have them yet (may be due to age)

Wings
•    Standard says “large, well-folded and held tightly to the body” – judge noted that some of our birds had a tendency to “drop” their wings down from horizontal, and he’d like to see them tucked up a little higher.
•    Some of our birds had a “weak wing” – when he popped them open (by squeezing at the joint rather than fanning the wing open), you could see they were almost split-winged. They may fill in (age issue), they may not (which would make them a generally weaker bird, regardless of breed)

Breast
•    Standard says “broad, deep and well rounded” – this is quite a common description. This translates to quite a big breast, which should “drop” at the bottom (full at the bottom, not just big at the top), so rounded all the way down. A lot of our birds were young at the show, so hadn’t grown into that full breast yet

Plumage
•    Watch for “shafting” – some of the feathers on our birds are supposed to have shafts that are a particular colour, and others aren’t specified. Some of our birds had feather shafts that didn’t match their plumage in the wrong spots

Leg Colour
•     Leg colour should be really bright yellow, rather than straw

Feather Colour – Gorria
•    “Red” should be a nice, bright red. Not strawberry blonde, not “rhode island red” mahogany, but bright red. The colour in the backs of the boys is about the right red.
•    Watch for black in the feathers where it shouldn’t be (like the breasts of the males)
•    Watch for “smut” (black smudges) on the feathers – should be nice, clear red

Feather Colour - Marraduna
•    Look for consistent colouring on the girls, with head and back matching and neck a bit darker with the black stripe. Colour is “golden red”, not straw, and not “red” like the gorrias.



Lisa’s Extra Research Notes
Head
•    Other breeds with “long” heads – white-faced black Spanish, catalana

Neck
•    Other breeds with “moderately long” necks – leghorns, jersey giants, anconas, catalanas
•    Breeds with “rather long” – i.e., too long for eo’s - game birds, blue andalusians, minorcas

Comb
•    To get an idea of size, look at the current APA standard at the combs of leghorns on page 118 – they show the difference between too small, too big and just right


When all else fails, go spend time with your chickens. :)

Pens are currently filled with Red Cuckoo (Marraduna) and Red Basque (Gorria) breeders, Spitz, and Seramas.

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2013-09-30 15:35:20

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#2 2013-09-30 16:07:12

gmb
Member
From: Orangeville, ON
Registered: 2013-08-03
Posts: 154

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

:applause:

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#3 2013-09-30 19:26:29

Flat Rock Farm
Member
From: Branchton, Ontario Canada
Registered: 2011-07-03
Posts: 3359

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

X2 :applause:

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#4 2013-09-30 21:45:43

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

I love this - Thanks,  Lisa!

:thumbsup:

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#5 2013-10-01 12:25:56

Susan
Administrator
From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

What a great help! That's awesome. He sounds like he was a great judge- taking time like that is invaluable for our Eos. Well done Lisa!

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#6 2013-10-01 12:56:14

hollowridge
Member
From: Lunenburg, County, Nova Scotia
Registered: 2013-03-25
Posts: 259

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

Thanks Lisa,
Great information to help in our breed selections.:goodthread:

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#7 2013-10-07 03:23:25

Amblecroft
Member
From: Millbrook, Ontario
Registered: 2011-08-03
Posts: 448
Website

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

If none of the heads at the show were "long" I would personally questions the standard.  How was it translated.  I know that "larga" means long in Spanish but it also can be interpreted as describing something that is "generous" .  Maybe the heads are just supposed to be large as opposed to small.  Was someone in contact with a EO breeder in Spain to be certain that we had the proper interpretation?    Just curious.


Susan Buttivant at Amblecroft,
Chaparral Pyrenean Shepherds and Petits Bassets
http://www3.sympatico.ca/chaparral/amblecroft.html

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#8 2013-10-07 12:41:53

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

I agree with Amblecroft, I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday after the Fur and Feather.  Does anyone have any nice type pullets that have the long head?


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#9 2013-10-07 13:13:05

Amblecroft
Member
From: Millbrook, Ontario
Registered: 2011-08-03
Posts: 448
Website

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

I just know from doing translations of French to English that some words aren't as easily translated and one has to look at the word from many different directions :-)
I don't know a lot about chickens and their standards but I can't imagine the EO's being so unique that it possesses a quality that no other chicken possesses.  I would guess that the chicken should have a substantial head and not a head that looks small compared to the body.


Susan Buttivant at Amblecroft,
Chaparral Pyrenean Shepherds and Petits Bassets
http://www3.sympatico.ca/chaparral/amblecroft.html

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#10 2013-10-07 13:24:12

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

I don't know much about chicken standards either but I know a little about dairy cows.  All things have to be in proportion.  long narrow head means tall narrow cow, short stocky head means short stocky cows.  The head has to fit the body otherwise we will fight trying to breed a head that is different from the body which isn't what we want at all.


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#11 2013-10-07 13:39:54

Lisa
Member
From: near Arthur, Ontario, Canada
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 649

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

I am suspecting that the "long" head is more common in that region - I searched my way through the APA manual and the two other breeds I found that had "long" heads were White-faced black Spanish and Catalana (there may be others that I missed). I found that helpful - I can find a picture of what those birds are supposed to look like so I can use it for comparison.

But I think it's a great idea to go back and re-check our translation!!


When all else fails, go spend time with your chickens. :)

Pens are currently filled with Red Cuckoo (Marraduna) and Red Basque (Gorria) breeders, Spitz, and Seramas.

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#12 2013-10-07 15:30:30

gmb
Member
From: Orangeville, ON
Registered: 2013-08-03
Posts: 154

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

But if standard is also say wide? Ok Im confuzzed!

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#13 2013-10-07 15:34:46

gmb
Member
From: Orangeville, ON
Registered: 2013-08-03
Posts: 154

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

<:> or just wide at eyes?

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#14 2013-10-08 00:40:11

Lisa
Member
From: near Arthur, Ontario, Canada
Registered: 2011-07-05
Posts: 649

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

Glenda,

As it reads now, our draft standard says "long" (from where the beak attaches to the face to the back of the skull), "wide" (like from cheek to cheek) and doesn't say "deep" (which would be from the top of the head to under the chin). Presto! Rectangle... ;)


When all else fails, go spend time with your chickens. :)

Pens are currently filled with Red Cuckoo (Marraduna) and Red Basque (Gorria) breeders, Spitz, and Seramas.

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#15 2013-10-08 01:21:45

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

When I think of a long head I think "crow headed".

Here are the SOP paintings for the buff Catalana. Heads don't look long to me.
http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac252/sulzmi/cbb1ef73.png
http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac252/sulzmi/571edb97.png


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#16 2013-10-08 01:31:01

gmb
Member
From: Orangeville, ON
Registered: 2013-08-03
Posts: 154

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

ok can see what you're saying on side view :thumbs:
:excited:

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#17 2013-10-08 01:33:54

gmb
Member
From: Orangeville, ON
Registered: 2013-08-03
Posts: 154

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

ok confuzzed again lol agree they don't look long

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#18 2013-10-08 01:48:00

gmb
Member
From: Orangeville, ON
Registered: 2013-08-03
Posts: 154

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

http://catalana.chicken-for-sale.info/
Now this one for sure long head :excited:

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#19 2013-10-08 01:57:04

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

I agree with you gmb, the hen in the photo you posted a link to has a long head. Poorly done SOP paintings perhaps.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#20 2013-10-08 02:04:50

gmb
Member
From: Orangeville, ON
Registered: 2013-08-03
Posts: 154

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

now searching the white-faced black Spanish :banginghead: lol I don't see any long heads

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#21 2013-10-08 10:59:54

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

gubi wrote:

I don't know much about chicken standards either but I know a little about dairy cows.  All things have to be in proportion.  long narrow head means tall narrow cow, short stocky head means short stocky cows.  The head has to fit the body otherwise we will fight trying to breed a head that is different from the body which isn't what we want at all.

I was thinking on your comments Gubi, and then also on Lisa's on the head needing to have a more than average length and width but an average depth. Thus the rectangle. This would also translate into the EO body shape: long and wide body but an average (I.e. not overly deep) body depth. Do you think that's what we want in terms of type? Does that fit people's mental picture of an EO.

If head shape is linked to overall bone structure and thus body type in chickens as it is in cattle I would say the shape of the head becomes much more important to watch and select for.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#22 2013-10-08 11:08:07

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

Looking through my EO picture library I think most of my BHR birds have a longer head than my SLF birds. Width may be a slightly different matter as some of the SLF birds are wider. Gmb the picture of the blond hen (that passed away) you pointed out on another thread as having a long head is BHR.

Here is a BHR cockerel.
http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac252/sulzmi/Euskal%20oiloa/5942877925d8e1e13f39b7ef09391505.jpg

And a pullet that has a very long body and long head but I sadly can't breed because of the crooked toe (which I have proven is highly genetic). I had noted the hen as having a long body, I think here head is in proportion.
http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac252/sulzmi/Euskal%20oiloa/7ca86d62985f8c3d7f39c9e2fef2a26f.jpg

Here is a picture on one of my biggest, widest SLF hens as a pullet but I think here face is a bit shorter?
http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac252/sulzmi/Euskal%20oiloa/678f91338ac2d1b2571bad1b8c4093e4.jpg


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#23 2013-10-08 12:38:47

gmb
Member
From: Orangeville, ON
Registered: 2013-08-03
Posts: 154

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

:applause: "All things have to be in proportion" :applause: or should be . . . or should try to be :whistle:
PG I also see head length in the hen or pullets behind, in the pic of your BHR cockerel :thumbsup:
Lisa I'm understanding and seeing it now :excited: I think lol

poplar girl wrote:

gubi wrote:

I don't know much about chicken standards either but I know a little about dairy cows.  All things have to be in proportion.  long narrow head means tall narrow cow, short stocky head means short stocky cows.  The head has to fit the body otherwise we will fight trying to breed a head that is different from the body which isn't what we want at all.

I was thinking on your comments Gubi, and then also on Lisa's on the head needing to have a more than average length and width but an average depth. Thus the rectangle. This would also translate into the EO body shape: long and wide body but an average (I.e. not overly deep) body depth. Do you think that's what we want in terms of type? Does that fit people's mental picture of an EO.

If head shape is linked to overall bone structure and thus body type in chickens as it is in cattle I would say the shape of the head becomes much more important to watch and select for.

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#24 2013-10-08 13:43:09

gmb
Member
From: Orangeville, ON
Registered: 2013-08-03
Posts: 154

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

:chairhide: I'm thinking more length but maybe I should be thinking less depth??? :huh:
:duh: both??? :huh:
was looking at Rudy this morning, (the new boy we just got) he does have more length to head or maybe should be saying less depth?  But visually his head does look longer.

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#25 2013-10-09 01:23:02

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Feedback from the Colwyn Show - Sept 28, 2013

gmb wrote:

PG I also see head length in the hen or pullets behind, in the pic of your BHR cockerel :thumbsup:

Agreed gmb, and she is also BHR.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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