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#1 2013-01-29 01:52:35

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

Reading the description of Euskal oiloas in the articles onymous just posted (http://forums.euskaloiloas.com/viewtopi … 496#p18496) I see that the eye color is described as "chestnut". In our draft SOP for marraduna we translated the eye color as "brown".

So this creates the opportunity for some discussion about how we should go about deciding on, making changes to, and documenting changes to our SOP. I know there will be changes we should make as we learn and show our birds. How should we go about it?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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2013-01-29 01:52:35

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#2 2013-01-29 01:55:09

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

Here is a link to the stickied SOP thread.
http://forums.euskaloiloas.com/viewtopic.php?id=558
It has had 1482 (1483 now) views so far!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#3 2013-01-29 02:45:14

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

:surfing:

show me a 'chestnut' eye, and a 'brown' eye  (No Mike - not a browneye)

And then a block of the chestnut color and a block of the brown color.

Then we'll talk. :group talking:

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#4 2013-01-29 02:56:59

mikencarol
Member
From: Oklahoma
Registered: 2012-08-21
Posts: 204

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

:funny::funny:....Well...if its Brown....it is a good thing that other part is a Beak and not a Nose  :thumbsup:


I have to keep reminding myself... "It is The Standard of Perfection...NOT the Standard of Quantity that we are striving for..."

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#5 2013-01-29 12:26:39

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

:Crazy: So let's assume that there IS a difference between "brown" and "chestnut" and have a discussion on that basis? What I mean is, I know suggestions for changes are going to come, how do we want to evaluate whether to make the change or not, make it, and document it?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#6 2013-01-29 13:38:03

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

Hmm. Need to think on that. A poll would be good, but as for the final decision, not sure yet.

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#7 2013-01-29 13:39:48

Susan
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From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

I need to look at my SOP book. Does it distinguish between chestnut and brown? I would think chestnut would be lighter with orange tones

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#8 2013-01-29 17:45:51

Little Boy Blue
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From: Marble Falls, Texas
Registered: 2012-07-11
Posts: 83
Website

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

The APA judge that is reviewing the process for drafting the proposed Cream Legbar SOP told us that to do the draft properly we needed to have at least one member of the standards committee get a copy of the APA book and read the first 40 pages.  The APA have deffinitions for color used in thier standard.  I did not get the APA book and have not ready the first 40 pages, but those pages are supposed to be all the deffinitions and standard language used to describe poultry by APA.  I know that chestnut is defined in the APA book because the Cream Legbar Stanards committee used it to describe the feather color on the sholders of the wing (oops my APA ignorance is showing.  What is the correct APA term for the upper part of the wing?  Not shoulders).  You might look for breeds that are already in the APA that have the eye color that the EO's should have in their standard and then see what terms they used in the SOP.  I don't think any of MY Basque Hens have "brown" eyes as defined by APA.  I am pretty sure all of mine have Bay eyes (but what we have isn't what the SOP should be. What Orozco standized in the 70's is what the Standard should be. We just have to know what that should be and accuarly describe in the APA terms).

Other thing that came out in the Cream Legbar SOP committee was the number of points on the comb.  The other side of the pond allows the range of  5-7 points, but APA doesn't.  You have to choose, 5, 6, or 7.  The APA  requirments are going to be a lot different from the Spanish Standard. 

Does anyone know what body is incharge of the Spanish Standards?  I know here were use the APA and in England they follow the GBPC.  People working on the CLB standard got copies of both standards book to see what the definitions requirements were for both.  I know the Spanish Standard list "cafe" or the eye color, but if we had a Spahish Standards book I would love to see how they define "cafe".  I know I and a few other people on here speak Spanish, so that might me an option.

Oh...anyone friends with an APA judge?  If so you might consider inviting them to join the EO forum (or where ever the EO SOP will be discussed) to provide claification and point us in the right direction while working through the draft.  :EO:

LBB

Last edited by Little Boy Blue (2013-01-29 17:51:40)


Cottage Hill Black Copper Marans & Cream Legbars

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#9 2013-01-29 23:40:48

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

:thanks: LBB! Awesome post!

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#10 2013-01-30 01:33:01

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

I own a 2010 American Standard of Perfecion. I've read the first 40 pages a few times, I just reviewed them again.
Brown is not defined.
Chestnut: A dark red-brown plumage color, darker than bay.
Bay: 1)A light golden-brown
        2)Also used to designate an intermingling of red and yellow in the iris caused by surface capillaries in the eyes in some varieties of fowl.

LBB, wings have a front, bow, bar, shoulder, secondaries, primaries and primary coverts.

Some of this i know we discussed during SOP development, it is coming back to me now.

Interested to hear others thoughts...


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#11 2013-01-30 03:38:44

Micah and Kiah
Member
From: West Grey
Registered: 2012-04-20
Posts: 839

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

The judge at the Oxford show mentioned the need to decide on the number of points.  Maybe we could poll or keep records of how many points on average our boys have on thier combs?  The Feather Fancier editor is one of only 3 people in Canada who can certify APA judges.  He has a copy of our SOP and is willing to provide more feedback.  He indicated that the more shows we attend the more seriously our intentions for feedback to build our consistency and SOP. when you read through the breeds in the APA some aspects are kept a little broad and some aspects are quite specific.  For example, what does, "Fairly long." mean? or "Swarthy yellow" versus just yellow? 
After reading your post I stared at EO eyes for awhile.  Is chesnut specifying light brown versus a broader definition


All the best,

Kiah and Micah

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#12 2013-01-31 00:12:56

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
Website

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

Good question on the how to document.  I am not good at this type of thing, but can we start on the working SOP, by adding a reference a small 1, 2 on the attribute or feature that is changed, with a date and what it was changed from and maybe the reference to the source of the new info be it a document, webpage or quote from an expert.  Maybe go by polls to decided on adding it. 

I imagine we should evolve it as we discover things rather than waiting and doing it on a schedule, hopefully there are not too many changes, but I think anything significant that is recognized as presently being incorrect, we are wise to document fairly quickly?

As far as number of comb points, that may take longer, either to document what we have and come to a consensus, or maybe to research other APA recognized Spanish breeds in north America and what they went with and why.  :thumbs:

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#13 2013-01-31 01:32:44

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

Well, I vote for 6pt comb in our SOP description... that way if we have a 5 or a 7, we are only one pt off! :P

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#14 2013-02-01 00:46:11

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

I counted the points on the combs of my roosters.  Big boy had 6, the two cockerels have 5 points each.  If we have to decide on a number I would prefer 5 points.  I also like a smaller comb on the roosters for less chance of frost bite. 
I like this cockerels comb the best so far. 
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/576254_10151066744846227_1420607114_n.jpg
I don't know the difference between chestnut and brown.


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#15 2013-02-01 01:22:16

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

I don't either, gubi. My birds eyes look like yours - I thought they were red. His comb is red, and his eyes are reddish. but.. If you look at images of chestnuts, lots of them have that reddish brown tinge on them. Hmmm...http://www.restaurants-guide4u.com/food_products/reference/28321/chestnut.jpg

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#16 2013-02-01 01:28:34

Susan
Administrator
From: Saskatoon, Sask, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-28
Posts: 2540

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

Think of a chestnut horse. They are an orangey- brown

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#17 2013-02-01 01:31:09

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

I'll count points this weekend.

Comparing MDs Chestnut picture to gubi's EOs eye I could call that Chestnut. I think of a chestnut horse too Susan.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#18 2013-02-01 03:23:11

Micah and Kiah
Member
From: West Grey
Registered: 2012-04-20
Posts: 839

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

I'll count points on the weekend too.  I'd say the eyes of my boys and girls are identical to Gubi's boy. How great to be discussing such fine points, that means we the overall SOP is good, right?


All the best,

Kiah and Micah

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#19 2013-02-01 16:45:59

Micah and Kiah
Member
From: West Grey
Registered: 2012-04-20
Posts: 839

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

Just was thinking on my break here... we have ther general description of the E.O. in the SOP then we have what is specific to the Maraduna.  What are the other colours that we will be adding?  Do we do all the colour types in our one submission or just start with one or just whichever ones can meet critiera by the time of submission and add the other colours as we are able to develop them?

I would like you all to consider a uniquely North American colour addition;  The Mille E.O.  :Canada: :US:
It is our SOP to reflect our awesome EOs so... well...just think about it?  :please:


All the best,

Kiah and Micah

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#20 2013-02-02 01:40:51

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

I would like to include the gorria, I think to be honest it will be much easier to get that color to the SOP and then add back the barring so I will likely try that along side the marraduna. It should be pretty easy to write up the description in the SOP formate.

Barred and Mille fleur at the same time will definately represent a challenge!!!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#21 2013-02-02 04:39:49

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

I don't have the facilities to take on another color. :sad: I'm focusing my resources on the barred red...  and figure if I'm making progress in five to seven years I'll be doing good.

When I look at p5 of my 2010 ASOP, I don't see how it would be possible to get colors admitted that we don't have. And what is required of the breeders and show- ers for what we do have, it's going to take a lot more people (dedicated people) than what we have now.

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#22 2013-02-02 14:20:29

Micah and Kiah
Member
From: West Grey
Registered: 2012-04-20
Posts: 839

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

Getting out to the shows will generate interest in our beautiful breed and give us feedback and demonstrate our interest to APA judges. 
yes, MD, we can only enter colours we have BUT the dedicated people we have now are a great start.  Five years of breeding have already happenned and if you look at page 5 and think about this, 2013,  as year one in the five year process, then that gives 10 years of dedicated breeding in North America before entry into the APA. It is dedication and commitment  for no less than 5 Maraduna breeders to produce, "not less than 50% of all specimens reasonably true to   type, colour, size and comb."   Just 50% for 5 years from 5 breeders!!!!
I think it is quite achievable.
I am new with chickens, I know and I appreciate your words or caution.  We are a good balance to each other as on this issue! 

Maggiesdad wrote:

I don't have the facilities to take on another color. :sad: I'm focusing my resources on the barred red...  and figure if I'm making progress in five to seven years I'll be doing good.

When I look at p5 of my 2010 ASOP, I don't see how it would be possible to get colors admitted that we don't have. And what is required of the breeders and show- ers for what we do have, it's going to take a lot more people (dedicated people) than what we have now.


All the best,

Kiah and Micah

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#23 2013-02-03 13:24:07

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

So I looked at my boys combs. I have a 5 point, two 6 points and a 7 point. I would suggest we go with either 5 point or 6 points. And gubi I agree 100% that a huge comb is not a great idea, I like your roosters simple little comb above. Should we run a poll?

As for eye color, mine look like those of the rooster you posted. I would call that chestnut. Another poll?

M&K, with regards to the Mille color. Are you proposing to try for APA status of the color along side marraduna right at the beginning, say in 5 years? Or as a side project where that variety would be added as a new variety at a later date?

Also I would almost guarantee that 50% or more of my birds this year will not be "reasonably true to type, color, size and comb" from this year's breeding. I would take that to mean I have 50% or more that I could take to a show and not have them disqualified as a start (so no sprigs, white tail feathers, feather stubs) but also that they are a good example of a specific color variety, say marraduna, as well as type. Even Kenya's EO that won "best of Breed" at the Oxford show would not meet that requirement in my opinion (color) so I think we have a long way to go. Someone should talk to a judge, I could be wrong.

Please understand I am not trying to be discouraging or negative, I just think its important to be clear on where we are right now so we all understand the scope of this undertaking. I don't see this as a 5 year project personally, more like 7 years or more unless I am misunderstanding what will be required.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#24 2013-02-03 13:44:03

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

I agree with you PG.  We are a ways away from 50%.  So far I'm just happy to raise a few that are close.  At this point we are still using lots of breeders with DQ's because they are superior in other ways and will have to cull those DQ's out still the next few generations.  Wrong color feathers, wrong colored legs, sprigs, white tails and the list goes on.  Lots of things to work on still.  If we work at one thing every year it will take us a good number of years to work through those!


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#25 2013-02-03 20:59:47

Micah and Kiah
Member
From: West Grey
Registered: 2012-04-20
Posts: 839

Re: Protocol for modifying our draft SOP

It is ok PG, we need everyones voices to make a project successful.

"M&K, with regards to the Mille color. Are you proposing to try for APA status of the color along side marraduna right at the beginning, say in 5 years? Or as a side project where that variety would be added as a new variety at a later date?" " Someone should talk to a judge, I could be wrong."

Maradunna first, other colours later.  I did talk to a judge and he was very encouraging.  I will contact some more judges and see if any of them are willing to join the forum and give us more insight. 

Little Boy Blue, would anyone from the Cream Leg Bar SOP committe be willing to comment about the process they are going through on the forum or to one of the administrators?

Yes, 5 years, even seven years if you and Gubi are right, could be seen as a long term commitment. I guess I see it as a very exciting beginning to a historical event.   It may not be a process that interests everyone on the forum and that is ok, right? 

Discussions like this and refining the SOP and our understanding of the specific language is critical to the process.

I wondered if it would be helpful to open a strand where people can if they want, record the results of each of thier hatches this year, noting the parent lines and how many of the offspring fit the SOP.  That would give us specific data so we know what stage we are at?


All the best,

Kiah and Micah

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