Euskal Oiloa Chicken Forum

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#1 2012-08-21 17:24:24

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

How many to start?

I am new to the breed but really want to do EOs justice. How many birds do I really need to start with? Obviously choosing the best examples and working from there. Is a dozen enough? I'd originally wanted to work with several breeds but am rethinking this and am now down to two, EOs included. I am open to any and all suggestions for doing this right and have been reading everything I can get my hands on. I don't have the desire or space to breed on a large scale and I'd rather focus on quality rather than quantity, so my question is am I doing the breed a disservice by only keeping and breeding a few?

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2012-08-21 17:24:24

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#2 2012-08-21 18:44:39

NaturesPace
Member
From: Augusta county VA, USA
Registered: 2011-12-20
Posts: 915
Website

Re: How many to start?

I don't really  have an anwer for you but someone else here should. But my first question to you would be... when you say a few birds, how many birds can you keep? 5? 12?...

Somethings to think about too:
what is your plan for your culled birds? if you hatch out 30 birds you might only keep 4 of them for breeding.
what is your plan for breeding them? meaning, do you plan to sell hatching eggs, keep a flock for yourself and friends only...?

I know several EO forum members hatched out a lot of chickens this year and only kept 8 or so. (by a lot, i mean at least 50-100)

Sorry i'm not much help.


More pictures and videos of chicks. www.outoforderacres.com

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#3 2012-08-21 19:10:12

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

NaturesPace wrote:

I don't really  have an anwer for you but someone else here should. But my first question to you would be... when you say a few birds, how many birds can you keep? 5? 12?...

Somethings to think about too:
what is your plan for your culled birds? if you hatch out 30 birds you might only keep 4 of them for breeding.
what is your plan for breeding them? meaning, do you plan to sell hatching eggs, keep a flock for yourself and friends only...?

I know several EO forum members hatched out a lot of chickens this year and only kept 8 or so. (by a lot, i mean at least 50-100)

Sorry i'm not much help.

I have almost 70 birds here now including my laying flock. A decent portion of those are most likely roosters and some will be grown out for possible breeding candidates. Culled females will be added to the laying flock and culled roosters will become dinner or if they are friendly perhaps rehomed. I haven't decided about rehoming roosters yet because I am struggling with the idea of rehoming substandard birds that could potentially be used for breeding EOs by someone else later. However I can see rehoming extra roosters that are breed worthy. Once they're all culled/sorted, I will have room for breeding. I have 3 coops currently and have plans to build another. There are pens and room to free range.

I would like to breed them for my own enjoyment, for homesteading and perhaps, if they are high enough quality to want to share, sell hatching eggs. Thanks for helping me clarify this. :)

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#4 2012-08-21 19:49:15

NaturesPace
Member
From: Augusta county VA, USA
Registered: 2011-12-20
Posts: 915
Website

Re: How many to start?

Excellent! Sounds like you have all your bases covered.

I still can't tell you with any authority, but my guess would be to start with your best cockerel and keep a backup one. Then at least 3 - 5 ladies, but if you have more girls that would be ok too.

I have one good cockerel and an ok backup and I have one good pullet. not a lot to work with yet. My goals for my flock are to have a great homesteading flock, so I will probably breed for personality, health and productivity.


More pictures and videos of chicks. www.outoforderacres.com

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#5 2012-08-21 21:59:36

Little Boy Blue
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From: Marble Falls, Texas
Registered: 2012-07-11
Posts: 83
Website

Re: How many to start?

I was told to keep 4 cockerels because one will get eaten by a predator, one will die all of a sudden for no apparent reason, one will be infertile, and that way you will still have one to work with.

But, if you don't have space for four roosters, then do keep two if you are planning on breeding. :)

NaturesPace wrote:

Excellent! Sounds like you have all your bases covered.

I still can't tell you with any authority, but my guess would be to start with your best cockerel and keep a backup one. Then at least 3 - 5 ladies, but if you have more girls that would be ok too.

I have one good cockerel and an ok backup and I have one good pullet. not a lot to work with yet. My goals for my flock are to have a great homesteading flock, so I will probably breed for personality, health and productivity.

Last edited by Little Boy Blue (2012-08-22 17:16:11)


Cottage Hill Black Copper Marans & Cream Legbars

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#6 2012-08-21 23:05:03

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

NaturesPace wrote:

Excellent! Sounds like you have all your bases covered.

I still can't tell you with any authority, but my guess would be to start with your best cockerel and keep a backup one. Then at least 3 - 5 ladies, but if you have more girls that would be ok too.

I have one good cockerel and an ok backup and I have one good pullet. not a lot to work with yet. My goals for my flock are to have a great homesteading flock, so I will probably breed for personality, health and productivity.

I'll be breeding for those qualities too. I have a sweet cockeral who is rather speckly and I'm so tempted to hang onto him just to see how he turns out. Ideally it would be nice not to stray too far from the standard but as a homesteading bird, it's awfully tempting. :chairhide:

So far I have two pullets who look to be typically colored and they're both good sized with nice temperaments. They're a bit too young to say for sure, but they're definitely candidates. The boys are all over the map but one in particular looks promising, at least to my eye. And he's friendly, which is important. The others are too young but I'll post photos of them at some point. Hopefully there are a few more pullets to choose from!

Thanks for the tips! We have to start somewhere and I'd rather do it slowly and with thought rather than haphazardly. I like your site. I think Welsummers are neat birds. My Darla is a love but is not laying yet. Looking forward to that!

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#7 2012-08-21 23:09:19

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

Little Boy Blue wrote:

I was told to keep 4 cockerels because one will get eatten by a predator, one will die all of a sudden for no apparet reason, on will be infertile, and that way you will still have one to work with.

But, if you don't have space for four roosters, then do keep two if you are planning on breeding. :)

Yes, that would be my luck!! :funny:

Actually it makes good sense. I am going to try to keep at least 3, if there is room to do so. I'd like to have 4 boys to choose from ultimately but will have to see what's in this small group. I didn't get a large group of chicks as I wasn't sure whether I'd like the breed. I wish I'd gotten more because I absolutely love them. They're the most thoughtful, curious chicks and they seem smart so far. Plus, I am going for hardy and these definitely fit the bill so far.

Thanks very much for your suggestion.

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#8 2012-08-22 00:05:06

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: How many to start?

It won't just be about how many you keep it will matter how closely related (inbred) the birds you start with are, how many of each sex you keep, how you mate them and their offspring for breeding etc.

I would be hesitant to toss out numbers because of all the variables. That said, the EOs in Canada and the USA are pretty inbred and not too many awful problems are cropping up so far.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#9 2012-08-22 12:09:07

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

poplar girl wrote:

It won't just be about how many you keep it will matter how closely related (inbred) the birds you start with are, how many of each sex you keep, how you mate them and their offspring for breeding etc.

I would be hesitant to toss out numbers because of all the variables. That said, the EOs in Canada and the USA are pretty inbred and not too many awful problems are cropping up so far.

Thanks for pointing this out. It is definitely a concern and something that I want to avoid. I have not yet decided how to set up my pens but have considered having two to begin. One with females from source A and males from source B, and vice versa. Sometimes in horse breeding, it made a huge difference in the offspring to use line A stallions over line B mares rather than the reverse. I was hoping to determine which offspring were superior from these 2 pens and cull the others. Not the fastest method to be sure, though chickens breed significantly faster than horses. Is there a better way? Spiral breeding sounds very interesting and I am exploring that option as well.

Right now I'm just trying to gather enough decent stock to begin, period. At this very moment, 2 pullets and a cockeral look promising, to my eye. The others are too young to sex. I'll get an incubator, which I do not currently have, and hatch a number of a different line. That might have to wait until next year though as fall is almost upon us and some of the flocks here are still separate due to age differences. Adding more birds will be much simpler in the spring. I have some time though as my EOs are not yet laying/breeding.

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#10 2012-08-22 15:38:53

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: How many to start?

Just to clarify: closely related is not that same as inbred. Two birds can be losely related, and not be inbred; two (other) birds could each be inbred and entirely unrelated to each other.

The offspring of two related birds will be inbred (how inbred depends on how closely related the parents were, as well as how inbred the parents were, if they were inbred at all).

The offspring of two unrelated but inbred birds will NOT be inbred, no matter how inbred the parents were! How cool is that?

Last edited by ipf (2012-08-22 15:39:28)

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#11 2012-08-22 16:55:52

Maggiesdad
Moderator
From: Louisa County, Virginia
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 1980

Re: How many to start?

ipf wrote:

Just to clarify: closely related is not that same as inbred. Two birds can be losely related, and not be inbred; two (other) birds could each be inbred and entirely unrelated to each other.

The offspring of two related birds will be inbred (how inbred depends on how closely related the parents were, as well as how inbred the parents were, if they were inbred at all).

The offspring of two unrelated but inbred birds will NOT be inbred, no matter how inbred the parents were! How cool is that?

At the risk of hijacking  :P  - ipf, how can these (EOs) be all over the place as far as traits we're seeing, if they are inbred? Wouldn't it seem like the more inbred they were, the more they'd look alike?

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#12 2012-08-22 17:08:01

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: How many to start?

Good question - yes,  highly inbred critters generally resemble each other rather closely. I don't know how inbred EOs actually are - and there may be some loci that are showing the effects of inbreeding while others retain more diversity - or the various colours/strains may have been kept separate until recently, so even if the strains were inbred, the resulting crosses would not necessarily be.
Not a very good answer I'm afraid.

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#13 2012-08-22 17:50:28

Little Boy Blue
Member
From: Marble Falls, Texas
Registered: 2012-07-11
Posts: 83
Website

Re: How many to start?

Maggiesdad wrote:

At the risk of hijacking  :P  - ipf, how can these (EOs) be all over the place as far as traits we're seeing, if they are inbred? Wouldn't it seem like the more inbred they were, the more they'd look alike?

If you cross two unrelated birds you get 50% blood from each bird in the offspring.  I have seen no fewer than four different charts for line breeding.  Some end up with a dozen pairing after 4 generation that are all 50% of the cockerels blood and 50% of the hens blood.  Assuming that the cock and the hen were not genetically similar the offspring at the end of the 4 generations could have dozens and dozens of phonotypes but would still have 50% of the hen's and 50% of the cock's blood which would mean no matter which of the two birds you selected to pair from the bottom of the chart you would still be as closely related as brother sister pairings.  This is even if they have different parents and different traits.  The better line breeding charts don't result in a even distribution of the genes over all the off spring, but rather drive the two lines apart from each other so at the bottom of the chart you could have some birds that are more than 85% of the cock's blood and some that are more than 85% of the hen's blood.  That way you can select pairs from each side of the line and still get hybrid vigor going forward.  If through selection in this process you end up with birds that are very uniform in phenotype it doesn't mean that they are inbreed. So... No, similarity in looks only indicate that diversity has been breed out not that the flock is suffering from inbreeding.  By the same token a lack of selection for similar phenotypes does not mean that you don't have inbreeding problems in a flock.  By have 85%+ blood of one of the foundation birds to cross with a bird with 85%+ blood of the other foundation bird you still will get hybrid vigor from the crossing and you will still be able to prevent missing toes, infertile cockerels, deficient immune systems, and other problems that result from inbreeding. 

Hope this helps. 

Flock management is the key.  Some of the cock fighting breeders kept very good breeding records that demonstrate that through proper management that they were able to maintain closed flock for as much as 30 years with out bringing in new blood or suffering from inbreed flocks.  :-)

Last edited by Little Boy Blue (2012-08-22 18:02:34)


Cottage Hill Black Copper Marans & Cream Legbars

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#14 2012-08-22 17:52:48

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

ipf wrote:

Just to clarify: closely related is not that same as inbred. Two birds can be losely related, and not be inbred; two (other) birds could each be inbred and entirely unrelated to each other.

The offspring of two related birds will be inbred (how inbred depends on how closely related the parents were, as well as how inbred the parents were, if they were inbred at all).

The offspring of two unrelated but inbred birds will NOT be inbred, no matter how inbred the parents were! How cool is that?

Makes perfect sense. Outcross! :cheer:

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#15 2012-08-22 17:57:35

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

Little Boy Blue wrote:

Maggiesdad wrote:

At the risk of hijacking  :P  - ipf, how can these (EOs) be all over the place as far as traits we're seeing, if they are inbred? Wouldn't it seem like the more inbred they were, the more they'd look alike?

If you cross two unrelated birds you get 50% blood from each bird in the offspring.  I have seen no fewer than four different charts for line breeding.  Some end up with a dozen pairing after 4 generation that are all 50% of the cockerels blood and 50% of the hens blood.  Assuming that the cock and the hen were not genetically similar the offspring at the end of the 4 generations could have dozens and dozens of phonotypes but would still have 50% of the hen's and 50% of the cock's blood which would mean no matter which of the two birds you selected to pair from the bottom of the chart you would still be as closely related as brother sister pairings.  This is even if they have different parents and different traits.  The better line breeding charts don't result in a even distribution of the genes over all the off spring, but rather drive the two lines apart from each other so at the bottom of the chart you could have some birds that are more than 85% of the cock's blood and some that are more than 85% of the hens blood.  That way you can select pairs from each side of the line and still get hybrid vigor going forward.  If through selection in this process you end up with birds that are very uniform in phenotype is doesn't mean that they are inbreed so no, similarity in looks only indicate that diversity has been breed out not that the flock is suffering from inbreeding. By the same token a lack of selection for similar phenotypes doesn not mean that you don't have inbreeding problems in a flock.  By have 85%+ blood of one of the foundation birds to cross with a bird with 85%+ blood of the other foundation bird you still will get hybrid vigor from the crossing and you will still be able to prevent missing toes, infertile cockerels, deficient immune systems, and other problems that result from inbreeding. 

Hope this helps. 

Flock management is the key.  Some of the cock fighting breeders kept very good breeding records that demonstrate that through proper management that they were able to maintain closed flock for as much as 30 years with out bringing in new blood or suyffering from inbreed flocks.  :-)

That really is an excellent question MD. This is all truly fascinating. There is so much to learn! The more I learn, the less I know. :Crazy:

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#16 2012-08-22 18:21:39

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: How many to start?

LBB, I think you're saying that if you start with an unrelated pair mating, and then mate siblings together for four generations, the resulting birds will be no more closely related than the first two siblings?

This is most definitely NOT true. They will be considerably more closely related than the first set of siblings, and the degree of relatedness will increase with each generation of sib mating.

Last edited by ipf (2012-08-22 19:04:06)

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#17 2012-08-23 00:17:14

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

ipf wrote:

LBB, I think you're saying that if you start with an unrelated pair mating, and then mate siblings together for four generations, the resulting birds will be no more closely related than the first two siblings?

This is most definitely NOT true. They will be considerably more closely related than the first set of siblings, and the degree of relatedness will increase with each generation of sib mating.

So, if I have this straight, I should begin with unrelated pairs? Or if they are fairly correct, siblings are okay to begin for a generation or two? I'm trying to wrap my head around this and really appreciate the assistance.

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#18 2012-08-23 00:54:52

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: How many to start?

Inbreeding is a very complicated issue, and the severity of its effects vary from species to species, variety to variety, and line to line.

Effects of inbreeding on vigour, fertility, growth rate, and production (among other things) are never positive; just  less detrimental in some cases than others.

I'm sure there are previous threads on this and other forums that you could find with a search, but if you have specific questions, I'll do my best.

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#19 2012-08-23 01:58:05

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

ipf wrote:

Inbreeding is a very complicated issue, and the severity of its effects vary from species to species, variety to variety, and line to line.

Effects of inbreeding on vigour, fertility, growth rate, and production (among other things) are never positive; just  less detrimental in some cases than others.

I'm sure there are previous threads on this and other forums that you could find with a search, but if you have specific questions, I'll do my best.

Thank you very much for your help. If I were to do spiral breeding, I would need outcrosses for lines A and B to get started, yes? And then ideally an additional future outcross family to begin line C? Do I have this straight? I'm probably making it more complicated than it needs to be.

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#20 2012-08-23 01:59:27

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

ipf wrote:

Inbreeding is a very complicated issue, and the severity of its effects vary from species to species, variety to variety, and line to line.

Effects of inbreeding on vigour, fertility, growth rate, and production (among other things) are never positive; just  less detrimental in some cases than others.

I'm sure there are previous threads on this and other forums that you could find with a search, but if you have specific questions, I'll do my best.

I also meant to say that I do not want to start off breeding siblings, even half siblings. It doesn't seem smart to begin a program that I hope to be long term. It doesn't seem worth the possible risks of setting negative traits.

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#21 2012-08-23 04:01:25

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: How many to start?

The more diversity you start with, the longer it takes for inbreeding to build up. I'm a geneticist, not a breeder, though, so can't (or at least shouldn't) comment on breeding strategies.

Last edited by ipf (2012-08-23 04:04:12)

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#22 2012-08-23 04:23:22

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

ipf wrote:

The more diversity you start with, the longer it takes for inbreeding to build up. I'm a geneticist, not a breeder, though, so can't (or at least shouldn't) comment on breeding strategies.

Thanks very much! I think I am going to start with two unrelated families and do some test breedings to start. I have some time to fully consider all of the options. I'm so excited about this! Now to gather my two intial families. :excited:

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#23 2012-08-23 11:45:22

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: How many to start?

Dalisgrams keep in mind with the EOs in the USA they are all related a few generations back. Skyline's EOs and Greenfire's EOs both originated from the same source in Canada a year or so ago. Each has probably raised 1-3 generations of birds since but they do all go back to one flock.

Not to say that starting with the least related birds you can obtain isn't a good idea because it is.

And keeping excellent records of the parents and offspring is also very important so you can determine based on the offspring what traits the parents carry as well as select who to mate them with. I would personally recommend pair breeding over a spiral group breeding strategy as you will know more about the parents and the chicks that way.

With these EOs It is my opinion that if you start with 3-4 well chosen cockerels and about 12-18 hens i think, with care, you could keep a closed flock and end up with a flock with the traits you desire down the road. For lack of space, good birds to start from, or knowledge of what traits you have in your flock right now you may want to introduce more birds to your flock next year or the year after.

All my opinion. The above reflects pretty much my own strategy with the EOs. This was year one of pair mating for my flock and I have to say I did learn quite a lot about my parent birds, some of which I would like to share with the group over the fall and winter. It also caused me to decide most of my parent birds will not be used for breeding next year. I have brought in quite a large number of EOs from two lines (really so far there are only two lines i am aware of in North America that trace back the the original flock imported) again this year and will be keeping a larger number of birds this time. You do need to start with as many birds as you can.

I do know to end up with a flock of EOs with the traits they should have in terms of all aspects is going to take quite a few years. I am pleased to say I think all the required traits are in the population, there are just scattered through many different birds and there are some traits that need to be eliminated as well.

Last winter we had a forum study group to try to educate ourselves on genetics and especially to understanding the desired traits and genetics of the EO. I think we will reconvene this winter and would love to have you and some of our other new members join us. It does help in making smart choices when you can use science as your base!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#24 2012-08-23 15:19:44

dahlisgrams
Member
From: NY
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 267

Re: How many to start?

poplar girl wrote:

Dalisgrams keep in mind with the EOs in the USA they are all related a few generations back. Skyline's EOs and Greenfire's EOs both originated from the same source in Canada a year or so ago. Each has probably raised 1-3 generations of birds since but they do all go back to one flock.

Thank you for confirming this information about the two lines originating from the same flock. I had thought as much but could not find where I'd seen it when I went to look again. This also seems to suggest that I should cull heavily in the beginning so as to avoid setting some of the undesired traits.

Not to say that starting with the least related birds you can obtain isn't a good idea because it is.

And keeping excellent records of the parents and offspring is also very important so you can determine based on the offspring what traits the parents carry as well as select who to mate them with. I would personally recommend pair breeding over a spiral group breeding strategy as you will know more about the parents and the chicks that way.


I have ordered some leg bands to differentiate birds and have begun a written log of my flock, though it is not yet complete. I'm still trying to decide exactly how to set it up, but it's in the works. I am thinking about this constantly and am leaning towards pair breeding, at least to start, for the very reasons that you mentioned including not having huge numbers to work with. I will be more likely to be able to correct or strengthen specific traits that way, I think.

With these EOs It is my opinion that if you start with 3-4 well chosen cockerels and about 12-18 hens i think, with care, you could keep a closed flock and end up with a flock with the traits you desire down the road. For lack of space, good birds to start from, or knowledge of what traits you have in your flock right now you may want to introduce more birds to your flock next year or the year after.

This is where I'd like to be, ideally. It might take this year and next to have the number of breeding candidates that I'd really like. I'm starting with 30+ this year and if I end up with a handful of breeders, I'd be happy. It will enable me to do some test breeding to see what traits they will produce and to find out what needs the most work. I hope to hatch some additional new birds next year to continue to build up the flock. Ideally I would like to end up with a closed flock but I have a long way to go to get there. I have a general vision of what I want, but ironing out the details of how to get there is the obstacle at the moment.

All my opinion. The above reflects pretty much my own strategy with the EOs. This was year one of pair mating for my flock and I have to say I did learn quite a lot about my parent birds, some of which I would like to share with the group over the fall and winter. It also caused me to decide most of my parent birds will not be used for breeding next year. I have brought in quite a large number of EOs from two lines (really so far there are only two lines i am aware of in North America that trace back the the original flock imported) again this year and will be keeping a larger number of birds this time. You do need to start with as many birds as you can.

I do know to end up with a flock of EOs with the traits they should have in terms of all aspects is going to take quite a few years. I am pleased to say I think all the required traits are in the population, there are just scattered through many different birds and there are some traits that need to be eliminated as well.


I figure the first year will be the year to test the waters. It sounds like that's what you did too. I am very interested to learn more about your first year of breeding and am looking forward to hearing more about your flock. I have Greenfire birds and will have some Skyline later this year as well. Are these the two lines you referred to? So far my birds are all over the map in terms of traits! Leg colors, feather patterns etc. are all different in the boys. The two oldest pullets are both nicely colored as far as I can tell, but the smaller of the two has white legs and the best colored cockeral has willow legs. It will be exciting to see how they develop and then it's time for some decisions.

Last winter we had a forum study group to try to educate ourselves on genetics and especially to understanding the desired traits and genetics of the EO. I think we will reconvene this winter and would love to have you and some of our other new members join us. It does help in making smart choices when you can use science as your base!

Yes, please! I would really enjoy that. I'm so new at this and want to learn as much as possible. Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and helping me get a handle on how I'm going to go about this project. I really appreciate it!  :wise:

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#25 2012-08-24 00:11:41

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: How many to start?

Dalisgrams the two lines I have are from Skeffling Lavender Farm and from Black Horse Ranch. Both these flocks originated from the original Quebec flock. I think genetics from both SLF and BHR lines have also made it to the USA but they were not kept as separate lines so Greenfire and Skyline birds are probably a mix of both.

I think you will have fun with your project and I look forward to discussing more with you as we both go along! There are always lots of good questions and discussion on this forum although with summer and everyone so busy it's been a lot quieter than winter was.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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