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#1 2011-07-28 18:40:06

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
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leg colour

Yellow legs is what we want in the Euskal Oiloa, The way I understand is that yellow is recessive to white but dominant to blue.  So if you have blue legs on a pullet you will never breed a yellow legged offspring.  Am I correct so far?  Now to throw a curve ball.  Green legs!?  Some of my youngest pullets have green legs!  Where do they fit in?  are they blue and yellow genes working together to make green?


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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2011-07-28 18:40:06

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#2 2011-07-28 19:33:01

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: leg colour

Good question Stefan we have some reading to do.  I honestly don't know.  I wonder if it would be on BYC anywhere or that genetics calculator website.  I'm on my iPhone right now so cant look very well :sad:

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#3 2011-07-29 01:10:42

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
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Re: leg colour

yellow legged cockrelshttp://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/185335_10150244068591227_556756226_8003701_2143452_n.jpg
green legged pullet
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/250053_10150244068826227_556756226_8003702_2707682_n.jpg
another green legged pullet
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281464_10150244069031227_556756226_8003703_6299456_n.jpg
white legged pullet
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/283364_10150244069331227_556756226_8003706_2360407_n.jpg
blue legged pullet?
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/284448_10150244069506227_556756226_8003707_4734523_n.jpg
green legged pullet and yellow legged cockerel
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/222572_10150244069776227_556756226_8003710_1551892_n.jpg
yellow legged pullet
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/254706_10150244070036227_556756226_8003717_5935500_n.jpg


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#4 2011-07-29 01:13:19

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: leg colour

I tried looking at the genetics calculator and couldn't find anything about leg colour there. Here are the pictures the legs on those two pullets are not white or yellow or blue they look green to me.


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#5 2011-07-29 01:14:41

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: leg colour

Wow, we have to figure this out ;)  , we've only ever had blues, white and yellows, no greenies!   Gorgeous roos, they are all nice, just have to figure out the legs!  Even the greens are different.  I guess that can vary with diet/age but I bet it is messy polygenic!

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#6 2011-07-29 01:15:33

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: leg colour

I think (provided the info is correct and I think it probably is) reading this may answer your question:
http://www.punbb-hosting.com/forums/Can … hp?id=1964


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#7 2011-07-29 01:20:15

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: leg colour

PG the link isn't working for me, do i have to be a member of squishy's site to see it?


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#8 2011-07-29 01:30:30

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: leg colour

gubi wrote:

PG the link isn't working for me, do i have to be a member of squishy's site to see it?

I am not sure Gubi...it does work for me though :huh:

http://www.punbb-hosting.com/forums/Can … hp?id=1969
Here is another link to more one the same subject but it may not work either.

Maybe I can explain the important parts.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#9 2011-07-29 01:35:49

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: leg colour

I don't see it either. :sad:

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#10 2011-07-29 01:39:58

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
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Re: leg colour

If you could explain the important parts that would be excellent!


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#11 2011-07-29 01:40:19

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: leg colour

:banginghead: Tara Lee Higgins also has a website but I haven't looked through it:
http://www.wolven.ca/higgins/ratranch

I will try to summarize but it will take me a bit as I need to understand first!


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#12 2011-07-29 01:49:08

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: leg colour

Chickens can have only two shank pigments; yellow or black or none at all.  There is an inner layer called dermal and an outer layer called epidermal, pending which pigment or lack of pigment is present, eight shank colours are possible; yellow, blue, straw, black, dusky white, dusky yellow, white and willow.

Willow or Green shank colour is made when the inner dermal pigment layer is black and the outer epidermal pigment layer is yellow.
Rich yellow, this means both the inner and outer layer of the skin must both be yellow.
If yellow and no pigment, the shank is straw
If yellow inner and black outer, dusky yellow shank is expressed. 
Keep in mind that number of eggs laid for females, diet, age of the bird (dilutes pigment), whether or not scales have been shed/removed/rejuvenated, and environmental conditions can all affect shank colour expression. 

Inhibitor of dermal under layer melanin Id (Davenport - 1906) and black dermis (inner skin) id"+" are gender linked.  When a pure willow shanked rooster (id"+"/id"+") is bred to a pure yellow shanked hen (Id/-), the F1's will eventually develop into being willow legged hens and yellow legged roosters.  Id cannot be passed from the mother to daughter.  Willow shanked chickens are hatched with yellow shanks which develop into willow shanks when they are approximately 6 to 8 weeks old.  Black plumaged and black shanked birds will have their shank colour begin to fade in their second year, Jersey Giants fade from black to olive green and Australorps from black to dark slate.

Dr. Carefoot mentions in "Creative Poultry Breeding," page 83 that; "the gene W, which prevented the deposition of yellow pigment in shanks, beak and skin.  This gene would therefore change willow legs to blue ones."  W is the mutation for white skin, Bateson - 1902.

I hope by referencing where this information came from it is okay to share a summary of it.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#13 2011-07-29 01:57:13

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: leg colour

From the second link I posted that did not work:

For those that could care less about the genetics, breed only yellow legged birds and pay particular attention to what the roosters are siring...if he has kids that have willow legs...and obviously you selected him to sire chicks as he has yellow legs himself, if he throws a willow leg, he is hiding an allele for willow.  You DO need to remove him from your breeding program if you want to produce males you can breed in the future from.  So you must remove him along with ALL his male kids (no way to tell if his sons are hiding green legs either unless you want to do what you just did with the Dad, test matings).  Now all his yellow legged female kids will be OK...they don't have green legs hiding in their genetics because they are female.  Above all, if green legs is an issue for you...DO NOT allow green legged birds to enter your breeding pens...kinda simple.

BUT rat ranch makes it clear that colors are secondary to other characteristics like temperament, productivity, vigor etc. As these are the most important.   


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#14 2011-07-29 02:49:34

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: leg colour

Thanks PG.  Knowing this it makes sense that we can get willow coloured legs then if we have blue, white and yellow.  Willow is one gene closer to yellow then blue.


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#15 2011-07-29 03:16:57

skeffling lavender farm
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From: Wiarton, ON, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-17
Posts: 2720
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Re: leg colour

What excellent info.  The Willow must be from Speckled Jim's Son...I'm going to have to use him with his yellow legged mom and hope I have a better chance of avoiding the willow gene at he certainly must have it.  Specky may have it as we did get blue legged daughters last year.

Interesting all the shade of yellows.  I don't think we have any bright yellow leggeds, they are paler, straw?  Some look yellower inside and whiter on top here.  She is right about temperament/productivity etc, if it takes a few more years to get the legs sorted so be it! 

I wonder if the bright yellow also hides the willow....

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#16 2011-07-29 03:30:50

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: leg colour

I need to go scrutinize my chickens legs with this info in front of me. Just to wrap my head around it 100%.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#17 2011-07-29 10:09:51

gubi
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From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: leg colour

Claire the way I understand is if he throws white which is yellow inside and white outside and blue which is black inside and white outside and Yellow which is yellow inside and outside he can throw Willow which is black inside and yellow outside.  So Jim can throw willow legs too.  I wonder if someone made a chart of the diffrent combinations for easier understanding.


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#18 2011-07-29 13:09:55

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: leg colour

Okay, this is much more confusing then I thought. I thought that it was easy to select for yellow legs and eliminate the other colors since yellow is recessive BUT (why is there always a but?) that is only true for epidermis color, dermal color genetics must also be considered. The reason this is so confusing (I think) is Barring/Cuckoo (B/B) can dilute black dermal colour to white. What that means is a deep yellow legged rooster can carry the gene for dermal color and you won't know it until you raise chicks with him.

I found this article:
http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/m … en_mut_leg

Shank colour                Dermis.                  Epidermis

White.                    none (Id/Id)           white (W+/W+)
Yellow.                  none (Id/Id)           yellow (w/w)
Green (Willow).      black (id+/id+).         yellow (w/w)
Slate/Blue.             black (id+/id+).         white (W+/W+)
Black.                    black (id+/id+)            white (W+/W+)

But on a barred rooster Green (willow) can look yellow. AND Slate can look white.
Hens what you see is what you get.
I need to further wrap my head around the genetics of straw and a couple other colors. Rat ranch talked about the inner dermal layer being yellow, I don't see that in the above table.

Does that look right?


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#19 2011-07-29 18:20:59

gubi
Member
From: Walton
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 1344
Website

Re: leg colour

lots of good info poplar girl,  I'll have to reread the last link a couple of times.  It appears that there are lots of genes at play when it comes to leg colour and some of them are sex linked.  Some of them have to do with feather colour too.  They do have two charts on there but they are different.


Herd of Brown Swiss, a few sheep, red cuckoo basque, Silverspangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben, ameraucanas(EE), Welsummer, broodie silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#20 2011-08-29 18:26:35

ipf
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From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: leg colour

Basically there are three genes (loci) involved, two of which have multiple alleleic forms. They are:
the W locus (yellow/white legs), which (I think. . .) only has two alleles, W=white and w=yellow;
The Id locus (dermal melanin inhibitor), which has up to 5 allelic forms (maybe?), is sex-linked, and is generally slow to express, so what you see in a chick may not be what you see in the adult; and
The E locus (extended black), which has six alleles.

For yellow legs, you need:
w (the yellow form of W; recessive);
Id, which is reportedly incompletely dominant and inhibits dermal melanin; and
e+, which is the wild-type allele at the E locus.

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#21 2011-08-30 00:34:32

poplar girl
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From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: leg colour

Oh ya, thank you for joining in ipf. Realizing this may be better answered as a chapter in out Genetics study group but I will ask a question now just so there are no surprises when I ask this questions later:

Why do some of my roosters have green legs? They are barred (marraduna EOs), I thought that should make the legs either yellow or white?

And 5 alleles for dermal melanin inhibitor and 6 for extended black!?! Oh my that is a huge number of possible shank colors is it not? What does the E locus do? 

I am dying to hear more about what each combination will result in. But I can wait if I have to.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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#22 2011-08-30 16:20:38

ipf
Member
From: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-29
Posts: 168

Re: leg colour

As I said, colour genetics is my weak area. Sorry, I don't know.
Trouble with genes is that they're never as simple as you want them to be - dominance is seldom complete, leakage occurs, and genes at different loci (sos non-allelic) interact with each other, not always completely predictably. I would have thought that in theory, your barred birds' legs should be yellow or white, particularly the males. (I'm assuming that the barring in the Marradunnas is sex-linked, not autosomal? Correct me if not).

Last edited by ipf (2011-08-30 16:21:01)

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#23 2011-08-31 03:03:53

Skylinepoultry
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From: Old Fort, Tennessee
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 222
Website

Re: leg colour

I'm gonna be doing a massive hatch this late December of 150 to 200 chicks, maybe more and start doing select culling. The correct gene is going to have to pop out of there somewhere. Considering we're all limited on our stock gene pool its the only sensible thing to do right now to start off with. That's just my thoughts on this as of right now.
My females look the best as far as in looking close to standard from pics I've seen. All my males carry certain attributes by not all that I can choose to breed cull. I've also notice that females don't have hardly any flecking in the hackles either and males have a very light undercarriage. The site Poplar Girl found is a perfect example of pics to study from visually.
http://www.euskalroots.eu/galeria/gallery.html

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#24 2011-08-31 03:42:06

3riverschick
Member
From: Ligonier, in Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: 2011-08-11
Posts: 64
Website

Re: leg colour

ipf wrote:

As I said, colour genetics is my weak area. Sorry, I don't know.
Trouble with genes is that they're never as simple as you want them to be - dominance is seldom complete, leakage occurs, and genes at different loci (sos non-allelic) interact with each other, not always completely predictably. I would have thought that in theory, your barred birds' legs should be yellow or white, particularly the males. (I'm assuming that the barring in the Marradunnas is sex-linked, not autosomal? Correct me if not).

===========
Yes, Campo states that    Marraduna barring is a result of the barring gene, not autosomal barring.
Best,
Karen


Karen Tewart
"The present is best served when we remember the past."

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#25 2011-08-31 11:17:33

poplar girl
Administrator
From: Athabasca, AB, Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
Posts: 3159

Re: leg colour

Winter project for me to do some reading then, see how much I can figure out. I wonder if having only a single gene for barring would allow green legs.

Skyline hatching large numbers and only keeping the best for breeding makes sense. My strategy since I don't have space for huge numbers will be pair breeding and lots of documentation of what chicks result. But I'm not keeping any green or white or blue legged Roos, just deep yellow.


Raising red cuckoo (marraduna) Euskal Oiloak and self blue (lavender) & black Belgian Bearded d'Uccles.

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